Do patterns of phylogenesis show evolution?

[Difflugia]

Question for debate: Are the patterns seen in molecular phylogenies sufficient to show that biological evolution occurred?

For reference and easier Googling, the science of generating evolutionary trees is known as cladistics or phylogenetic systematics. Using DNA sequence data to generate the trees is molecular phylogeny.

The standard of evidence I'll be discussing is reasonable doubt. Even that's pretty broad, but if your argument hinges on "possible," you should be able to at least quantify that.

I've generated phylogenies using online tools previously and discussed them in this post. I tried to start a tutorial in this thread. If someone wants to discuss how to actually use the tools and data, feel free to ask questions in the tutorial thread and I'll pick it back up.

This debate question is a response to this comment.

[SiNcE_1985]

That's likely not what's happening. Instead, by showing up in places like this, spouting a bunch of parroted nonsense from Hovind, acting like you're an expert in science when you clearly don't know anything about it, refusing to look at or discuss any science, refusing to discuss any creationist material, and generally behaving as you do....

First of all, nothing wrong with parroting the truth, regardless of who it's from.

Second, I never claimed, implied, nor insinuated that I was an expert.

You claim I don't know what I'm talking about, and you are entitled to your opinion..just like I'm entitled to my opinion that you're following a false religion (evolution) that is based on lies and deception.

So, we both have our opinions.

....you just might be giving people a bad impression of Christians and even Christianity.

I don't have a heavenly hope to hear the words of "well done, my faithful servant", from the Christians.

I hope to hear those words from the Christ.

But I don't get the sense that you care, and I really don't either, so it's probably a topic of discussion with your fellow Christians (and more suited to a different sub-forum than this one).

If you don't care, show it...but not talking.

[Clownboat]

Just for the record, these are meaningful questions that never got answers even though the request was made many times.

Those questions got answered, just not the way you would of liked.

You did not provide answers. If you had, you would fully use this opportunity to put me in my place. You didn't earlier and you fail again. You can now really make me look dumb since I have doubled down, all you have to do is show where you answered this:
"name even one feature of birds that are not found in some other dinosaurs."

I'm not obligated to follow the narrative of your false religion (evolution)...and my answers will reflect this.

Evolution is not a religion and you are not providing answers. Lately you have been making threats as I have shown.

Yeah, I reject YOUR understanding of birds.

Super cool!
Now, can you name even one feature of birds that are not found in some other dinosaurs?

Birds aren't dinosaurs, so it was a nonsensical question that was barely worth the attention I'm giving it even now.

Super neato! Now that we know that birds aren't dinosaurs, can you name even one feature of birds that are not found in some other dinosaurs?

"why did chickens retain the ability to grow teeth? When and why did chickens ever have teeth is a question that needs an explanation."
Again, this seems very relevant, but no explanation was provided.

I answered this, and for you to ignore the answer will maintaining there was no answer, is wild.

You did not answer this question. If you had, you would put me in my place by showing exactly where you did such a thing. I would then owe you an apology. At this point, you owe us an apology due to how dishonest you are being.

Now in place of rational debate, we get:
"If you want eternal life and to be spared of eternal damnation, do yourself a favor and accept Christ as Lord and Savior."
"as soon as you mention evolution, I guarantee the Creator of the universe looks at you with anger"

Yeah, I substituted his words and thoughts as it relates to his religion (evolution), and replaced it with mines.

Deceiver! You threatened eternal damnation and a Creator's anger. Why lie? The words are literally above for all of us to witness.

We're just exchanging religions ideas, that's all.

You bear false witness. We are talking about a scientific theory called evolution. It is only yourself that brings up eternal damnation (a religious concept) and some creator (a religious concept). You fail to level the playing field, because the playing field isn't level. You can only pretend that evolution is a religion, because it is not.

Speaking of Santa, I wonder what you think Rudolph was evolving into, with his red nose.

I can't believe I have to teach you this, but the Santa story isn't real (I hope your parents wont get mad at me for revealing this). Santa doesn't deliver presents and Rudolph neither flew, nor had a glowing read nose. It really seems like you have an issue separating myth from reality. That does explain a lot.

[Jose Fly]

If you don't care, show it...but not talking.

Well you've had several people try and warn you that not only are you not making even the smallest dent in evolution, but you're actually harming people's perception of Christianity. If your response to that is to double down......okay, have fun.

[The Barbarian]

It contradicts some people's interpretation of Scripture, but that's an entirely different thing.

Well, I've yet to get a response to you on that point..so hey, keep ignoring it and sticking to the lie.

If there's anything I've missed, feel free to bring if up.

As you know, most of the world's Christians belong to denominations which accept that evolution is consistent with Scripture. [/quote]

I don't know about that one.

Slightly over half of the world's Christians are Roman Catholics. And the church acknowledges that evolution is consistent with scripture. The next largest body of Christians is Eastern Orthodox, which also acknowledge this fact. And among Protestants, Anglicans, and Lutherans (except Missouri Synod) also admit the fact.

Science is too weak a method to include the supernatural. All I'm saying is that the record clearly shows that attacking evolution on religious grounds is a very efficient way of keeping people from coming to Jesus, and often causes others to lose their faith.

Not only do I disagree, just on theory...

I've shown you the testimony of a former YE creationist who gave you some examples.

It is a cool, rhetoric talking point to raise antennas...but no actual facts behind it.

Morton was citing facts. No point in denial.

Ain't nobody coming to Jesus because of no belief in evolution,

Not because of belief in gravity, either. But as you now see, YE creationism efficiently produces atheists. Just bad Christian theology. Plain and simple.

Everyone thinks their error is truth. You're no different. Yours is a minority view among the world's Christians. My point is that some creationists have gone further and declared that accepting evolution is rejection of God. And that damages His church.

As I said, just bad Christian theology.

I'm just pointing out what Jesus said.

Oh, is that what you call it?

The New Testament.

Don't recalling any such espousing nuclear fusion, either. Or many other things. That's not what they are for. Don't remember any Christian creed denying truths like that, either.

Yeah, but I'm not the one insinuating that the belief in evolution, even if true, is an essential part in the belief system.

Far as I know, no one ever has. As I pointed out repeatedly, God doesn't care what you think of evolution. I pointed out that YE creationists, unless they make an idol of YE creationism, are no less Chrisitian than the rest of us.

You are.

As far I can tell, YE creationists are the only ones doing such. Why not just accept it God's way without additions?

Advocating YE creationism is indeed a false teaching, but it only veers off into heresy when one insists that YE is an essential part of Christian faith.

Here's what works. "See how they love each other." When unbelievers see that in the behavior of Christians, they are much more inclined to come and take a look.

And notice how you're the only one who keeps mentioning the YEC, OEC thing.

Never mentioned OE once. Geez.

[SiNcE_1985]

If there's anything I've missed, feel free to bring if up.

Never mind. Moving along.

I've shown you the testimony of a former YE creationist who gave you some examples.

You said "most". I disagree with "most".

Not because of belief in gravity, either. But as you now see, YE creationism efficiently produces atheists. error is truth. You're no different. Yours is a minority view among the world's Christians. My point is that some creationists have gone further and declared that accepting evolution is rejection of God. And that damages His church.

You are wild one, Barb.

Seeing stuff that ain't there, hasty generalizations, all kinds of stuff.

The New Testament.

Oh. I didn't notice.

Far as I know, no one ever has. As I pointed out repeatedly, God doesn't care what you think of evolution. I pointed out that YE creationists, unless they make an idol of YE creationism, are no less Chrisitian than the rest of us.

Ok.

As far I can tell, YE creationists are the only ones doing such. Why not just accept it God's way without additions?

I was gonna ask you the same thing.

Never mentioned OE once. Geez.

Everytime you mention YE, all you're doing is sparking a YE/OE debate.

Which aint even a point of contention and is irrelevant to the discussion.

[SiNcE_1985]

Well you've had several people try and warn you that not only are you not making even the smallest dent in evolution, but you're actually harming people's perception of Christianity. If your response to that is to double down......okay, have fun.

When it's all "said and done", there is always someone who is still talking.

[The Barbarian]

If there's anything I've missed, feel free to bring if up.

Never mind. Moving along.

So nothing worth mentioning? Why mention it, then?

I've shown you the testimony of a former YE creationist who gave you some examples.

As you know, most of the world's Christians belong to denominations which accept that evolution is consistent with Scripture.

You said "most". I disagree with "most".

Doesn't matter. Add up Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. and it's the overwhelming majority.

Not because of belief in gravity, either. But as you now see, YE creationism efficiently produces atheists. error is truth. You're no different. Yours is a minority view among the world's Christians. My point is that some creationists have gone further and declared that accepting evolution is rejection of God. And that damages His church.

You are wild one, Barb.
Seeing stuff that ain't there, hasty generalizations, all kinds of stuff.

Glenn Morton documented it.

As far I can tell, YE creationists are the only ones doing such. Why not just accept it God's way without additions?

I was gonna ask you the same thing.

You add YE creationism. I don't add evolution. Scripture doesn't mention either.

Never mentioned OE once. Geez.

Everytime you mention YE, all you're doing is sparking a YE/OE debate.

Age of the Earth is not what YE creationism is about. If it was just denying geology, it wouldn't be such an emotional issue for people.

[SiNcE_1985]

So nothing worth mentioning? Why mention it, then?

Because, when your debate opponent fails to address a point you made, it is worth mentioning.

I've shown you the testimony of a former YE creationist who gave you some examples.

And none of them can make me see what I don't see.

As you know, most of the world's Christians belong to denominations which accept that evolution is consistent with Scripture.

I never knew that, and still don't.

Doesn't matter. Add up Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. and it's the overwhelming majority.

Nahhh. I ain't buying it.

Not because of belief in gravity, either. But as you now see, YE creationism efficiently produces atheists. error is truth. You're no different. Yours is a minority view among the world's Christians. My point is that some creationists have gone further and declared that accepting evolution is rejection of God. And that damages His church.

"If everyone else jumped off bridge, would you (I)?"

No.

Glenn Morton documented it.

Appealing to authority, argument from ad populum, hasty generalization, bad Bible hermeneutics, etc.

Would you like the list to go on and on with your fallacious reasonings?

As far I can tell, YE creationists are the only ones doing such. Why not just accept it God's way without additions?
Age of the Earth is not what YE creationism is about. If it was just denying geology, it wouldn't be such an emotional issue for people.

Still trying to figure out what YE has to do with absolutely anything pertinent to the discussion at hand.

[SiNcE_1985]

You did not provide answers. If you had, you would fully use this opportunity to put me in my place. You didn't earlier and you fail again. You can now really make me look dumb since I have doubled down, all you have to do is show where you answered this:
"name even one feature of birds that are not found in some other dinosaurs."

I don't answer loaded questions.

Evolution is not a religion and you are not providing answers.

A belief in an invisible, blind, random, creative force that created the universe, life, species, and consciousness.

Sounds like a religion to me, if I'd ever see one.

Lately you have been making threats as I have shown.

Threats such as?

Super cool!
Now, can you name even one feature of birds that are not found in some other dinosaurs?

Again, I don't answer questions that are loaded with false (or at the very least) unproven assertions.

Super neato! Now that we know that birds aren't dinosaurs, can you name even one feature of birds that are not found in some other dinosaurs?

If we knew that, you wouldn't be insinuating that they are, in the framing of your question.

You did not answer this question. If you had, you would put me in my place by showing exactly where you did such a thing. I would then owe you an apology.

Yeah, but in order to do that, I'll have to go back and dig it up...and I have no desire to do so.

Had you addressed the point when I made it, I wouldn't have to do all that.

At this point, you owe us an apology due to how dishonest you are being.

I always tell the truth, even when I lie.

Deceiver! You threatened eternal damnation and a Creator's anger. Why lie? The words are literally above for all of us to witness.

Did you feel threatened?

You bear false witness. We are talking about a scientific theory called evolution. It is only yourself that brings up eternal damnation (a religious concept) and some creator (a religious concept). You fail to level the playing field, because the playing field isn't level. You can only pretend that evolution is a religion, because it is not.

I explained why evolution is a religion.

I can't believe I have to teach you this, but the Santa story isn't real (I hope your parents wont get mad at me for revealing this). Santa doesn't deliver presents and Rudolph neither flew, nor had a glowing read nose. It really seems like you have an issue separating myth from reality. That does explain a lot.

So, Rudolph is a fictional character that exhibited a physical trait that animals of it's kind don't have in reality.

Wow, that actually does sound like evolution to me.

[The Barbarian]

As you know, most of the world's Christians belong to denominations which accept that evolution is consistent with Scripture.

I never knew that, and still don't.

That's the funny thing about reality; it doesn't care what we think of it. Add up Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. and it's the overwhelming majority.

Nahhh. I ain't buying it.

Doesn't matter. Reality still wins.

"If everyone else jumped off bridge, would you (I)?"

You can say Christians are wrong. We get a lot of that. But I'm still with them.

As you now see, YE creationism efficiently produces atheists. You're no different. Yours is a minority view among the world's Christians. My point is that some creationists have gone further and declared that accepting evolution is rejection of God. And that damages His church.

Glenn Morton documented it.

Appealing to authority,

Morton was just testifying about his experience. He knew the damage YE creationism does. It almost ruined him. And it did destroy the faith of some of his associates. Perhaps you don't know what "appeal to authority" means. What do you think it means?

And while you may scoff at what the world's Christians think, we don't much care.