What is "a god?"

[placebofactor]

Men have imagined many myths, legends, idols, gods, goddesses, heroes, demons, angels, saints, sun gods, moon gods, the gods of the hills, and the thousands of gods of ancient Egypt, Assyria, Persia, Babylon, Greece, and Rome; if gathered together in one place their images would fill the Smithsonian or the Colosseum in Rome.

There are those on this forum that claim Jesus Christ is not the true God. If this is true, he must be a false god like all other gods mentioned above because there is only one true God. And if Jesus is only “a god” what is he the god of?

My Bible claims the true God or Jehovah as some prefer to call him is perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness and is to be worshipped by his faithful followers. The LORD is both the Creator and ruler of the universe; and in the Old Testament, he is called, “I Am, Elohim, or Jehovah.”

So, if Jesus Christ is only “a god,” he is not worthy of any Christian’s love, honor, or respect.

Some claim we can pay obeisance to Jesus, but we cannot worship him. If we can pay obeisance to Jesus who is only "a god," why would it be wrong to bow a knee to any man who claims to be God, or even Satan who is the prince of the power of the air?

[Capbook]

God cannot have a God, or He wouldn't be God BY DEFINITION.

Here is Jesus crying out to His God and our God from the cross:

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? (Eno. 89:20; Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Sura 4:157-8.)

Here is Jesus telling Mary Magdalene that He has the same Father and God that she (the spiritual-Being/soul within) has:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Here is Christ -- the immortal spiritual-Being and first-created Son of God -- no longer incarnated inside of the human body of Jesus, again speaking about His God.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in The Temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my NEW name.

So we have it from Crown Prince Michael/Christ Himself, both inside the body of Jesus (before and after the resurrection) and out of the body of Jesus, that Christ (The One Whom God anointed) has the same God and heavenly Father as the rest of us.

Of course this makes perfect sense, as it is supported by hundreds if not thousands of verses saying exactly the same thing (that our God and heavenly Father is ONE All-Powerful, All-Knowing and Ever-Present Spiritual-Being that is Higher/Greater than EVERYONE (THE Most High), including Christ. No wonder Christ instructed everyone to pray ONLY to His Father and His God, just as Christ does.

And, to point out what should be obvious, the reason we don't find the claim "Jesus is God" or "God the Son", or "God is a 3=1 'trinity', etc. in the Bible IS BECAUSE THOSE CLAIMS ARE UNTRUE.

It is completely and totally illogical for someone to say "well, it doesn't say that Jesus isn't God either" (a negative), because there is no need to say anything other than our Father and our God is also Christ's Father and God, making them one and the same God. Would someone expect to find the negative phrases "God is not hate" or "Jesus was not the daughter of Mary", etc. ? Of course not. Saying and therefore knowing God IS Love, and that Jesus was the SON of Mary (not her daughter) should explain the situation perfectly and without ambiguity, to any rationally-minded individual.

The "relational subordination" of Christ to God is PERMANENT and it necessarily means -- as it says throughout Scripture -- that God is THE MOST HIGH meaning there is no one greater than or equal to God.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
15:27 For He (God, our heavenly Father) hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet. But when He (God) saith all things are put under [him (Christ), it is] manifest that He (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Christ).
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Christ), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him (God) that put all things under him (Christ), that God may be all in all.

So, you will not believe the Father's own words in Heb 1:8-9? The Father called the Son "God", is to you the Father was wrong in those verses?

It's actually you who are choosing to deny the fact that Hebrews 1:8-9 is meant to be a direct quote of Psalm 45:6-7, where Christ is calling Father His God, the same as Christ does everywhere else. You've already had this shown and explained to you more than once (and not just from me), but wish to ignore hundreds of verses so you can continue to believe in a fantasy (LIE).

Again you evade your line of argument regarding the son of lowercase cat, dog, man etc are lowercase cat, dog, man etc.
Then when it comes to uppercase God, the Son became a lowercase "god"?
That is an inconsistent argument.

This too has already been explained more than once, and is straight out of Scripture (and thus perfectly logical).

Do you really not understand there is only ONE GOD AND FATHER OF US ALL (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29; Sura 2:163)?

How many word "God" in Psa 45:7? One or two?
The first refer to Jesus (Heb1:9) and the second refer to the Father.

A misinterpretation of Deut 6:4 and Mark 12:29, of course there is only one Tetragrammaton, personal name of the Father.
That did not answer the question, why Son of uppercase God had a lowercase god?
Why can't follow your own line of comparison. That would be an inconsistent argument.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Yisra’ěl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one!
Mrk 12:29 And יהושע answered him, “The first of all the commands is, ‘Hear, O Yisra’ěl, יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one.

[A Freeman]

God cannot have a God, or He wouldn't be God BY DEFINITION.

Here is Jesus crying out to His God and our God from the cross:

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? (Eno. 89:20; Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Sura 4:157-8.)

Here is Jesus telling Mary Magdalene that He has the same Father and God that she (the spiritual-Being/soul within) has:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Here is Christ -- the immortal spiritual-Being and first-created Son of God -- no longer incarnated inside of the human body of Jesus, again speaking about His God.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in The Temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my NEW name.

So we have it from Crown Prince Michael/Christ Himself, both inside the body of Jesus (before and after the resurrection) and out of the body of Jesus, that Christ (The One Whom God anointed) has the same God and heavenly Father as the rest of us.

Of course this makes perfect sense, as it is supported by hundreds if not thousands of verses saying exactly the same thing (that our God and heavenly Father is ONE All-Powerful, All-Knowing and Ever-Present Spiritual-Being that is Higher/Greater than EVERYONE (THE Most High), including Christ. No wonder Christ instructed everyone to pray ONLY to His Father and His God, just as Christ does.

And, to point out what should be obvious, the reason we don't find the claim "Jesus is God" or "God the Son", or "God is a 3=1 'trinity', etc. in the Bible IS BECAUSE THOSE CLAIMS ARE UNTRUE.

It is completely and totally illogical for someone to say "well, it doesn't say that Jesus isn't God either" (a negative), because there is no need to say anything other than our Father and our God is also Christ's Father and God, making them one and the same God. Would someone expect to find the negative phrases "God is not hate" or "Jesus was not the daughter of Mary", etc. ? Of course not. Saying and therefore knowing God IS Love, and that Jesus was the SON of Mary (not her daughter) should explain the situation perfectly and without ambiguity, to any rationally-minded individual.

The "relational subordination" of Christ to God is PERMANENT and it necessarily means -- as it says throughout Scripture -- that God is THE MOST HIGH meaning there is no one greater than or equal to God.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
15:27 For He (God, our heavenly Father) hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet. But when He (God) saith all things are put under [him (Christ), it is] manifest that He (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Christ).
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Christ), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him (God) that put all things under him (Christ), that God may be all in all.

So, you will not believe the Father's own words in Heb 1:8-9? The Father called the Son "God", is to you the Father was wrong in those verses?

It's actually you who are choosing to deny the fact that Hebrews 1:8-9 is meant to be a direct quote of Psalm 45:6-7, where Christ is calling Father His God, the same as Christ does everywhere else. You've already had this shown and explained to you more than once (and not just from me), but wish to ignore hundreds of verses so you can continue to believe in a fantasy (LIE).

Again you evade your line of argument regarding the son of lowercase cat, dog, man etc are lowercase cat, dog, man etc.
Then when it comes to uppercase God, the Son became a lowercase "god"?
That is an inconsistent argument.

This too has already been explained more than once, and is straight out of Scripture (and thus perfectly logical).

Do you really not understand there is only ONE GOD AND FATHER OF US ALL (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29; Sura 2:163)?

How many word "God" in Psa 45:7? One or two?
The first refer to Jesus (Heb1:9) and the second refer to the Father.

A misinterpretation of Deut 6:4 and Mark 12:29, of course there is only one Tetragrammaton, personal name of the Father.
That did not answer the question, why Son of uppercase God had a lowercase god?
Why can't follow your own line of comparison. That would be an inconsistent argument.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Yisra’ěl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one!
Mrk 12:29 And יהושע answered him, “The first of all the commands is, ‘Hear, O Yisra’ěl, יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one.

You didn't answer the question: How can God have a God?

Christ obviously has a God, as Christ plainly stated. And Christ's Father and His God are THE Father and THE God: YHWH or, in English, the "I AM".

Everything that is been personally shared is not only perfectly consistent with itself, it's perfectly consistent with Scripture, which you continue to ignore. Including the verses where Christ very clearly tells us there is ONE God: His Father and His God.

There's only ONE God: YHWH or, in English, the "I AM". That's why we consistently and repeatedly are told there's only ONE God in Psalm 45:6-7, ONE God in Heb. 1:8-9, ONE God in Deuteronomy 6:4, ONE God in Zechariah 14:9, ONE God in Mark 12:29, and ONE God in Sura 2:163.

ONE MEANS ONE; it does NOT mean two or three, nor does 1=2, or 1=3, or 2=1, or 3=1, etc.

And there is ONE Mediator BETWEEN God and man: Christ, the Saviour.

And what did Christ say about "gods"? He quoted the psalmist, and stated that "gods" = the sons of God = The children of the Most High in the context of explaining what a spiritual-Being is. There are many gods (spiritual-Beings/sons of God), including the first one that God created, whom God anointed, hence the name of God's Anointed: The Messiah/Christ.

That's why Christ has FELLOW spiritual-Beings. ALL of the CREATED spiritual-Beings/sons of God (aka "gods", angels, souls, jinns) are PEERS. It is THE ONE TRUE GOD that set His Anointed One (Christ) apart and above Christ's fellows by creating Christ FIRST.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the "I AM", and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the "I AM", and Satan came also among them to present himself before the "I AM".

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated inequity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy FELLOWS (spirit-beings).

FELLOWS
noun

1: comrades, associates (in this specific matter they are all the sons of God)

2a: those equal in rank, power, or character : peers (in this specific matter they are all the sons of God)

3: members of a group having common characteristics (in this specific matter they are all the sons of God)

[Capbook]

God cannot have a God, or He wouldn't be God BY DEFINITION.

Here is Jesus crying out to His God and our God from the cross:

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? (Eno. 89:20; Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Sura 4:157-8.)

Here is Jesus telling Mary Magdalene that He has the same Father and God that she (the spiritual-Being/soul within) has:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Here is Christ -- the immortal spiritual-Being and first-created Son of God -- no longer incarnated inside of the human body of Jesus, again speaking about His God.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in The Temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my NEW name.

So we have it from Crown Prince Michael/Christ Himself, both inside the body of Jesus (before and after the resurrection) and out of the body of Jesus, that Christ (The One Whom God anointed) has the same God and heavenly Father as the rest of us.

Of course this makes perfect sense, as it is supported by hundreds if not thousands of verses saying exactly the same thing (that our God and heavenly Father is ONE All-Powerful, All-Knowing and Ever-Present Spiritual-Being that is Higher/Greater than EVERYONE (THE Most High), including Christ. No wonder Christ instructed everyone to pray ONLY to His Father and His God, just as Christ does.

And, to point out what should be obvious, the reason we don't find the claim "Jesus is God" or "God the Son", or "God is a 3=1 'trinity', etc. in the Bible IS BECAUSE THOSE CLAIMS ARE UNTRUE.

It is completely and totally illogical for someone to say "well, it doesn't say that Jesus isn't God either" (a negative), because there is no need to say anything other than our Father and our God is also Christ's Father and God, making them one and the same God. Would someone expect to find the negative phrases "God is not hate" or "Jesus was not the daughter of Mary", etc. ? Of course not. Saying and therefore knowing God IS Love, and that Jesus was the SON of Mary (not her daughter) should explain the situation perfectly and without ambiguity, to any rationally-minded individual.

The "relational subordination" of Christ to God is PERMANENT and it necessarily means -- as it says throughout Scripture -- that God is THE MOST HIGH meaning there is no one greater than or equal to God.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
15:27 For He (God, our heavenly Father) hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet. But when He (God) saith all things are put under [him (Christ), it is] manifest that He (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Christ).
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Christ), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him (God) that put all things under him (Christ), that God may be all in all.

So, you will not believe the Father's own words in Heb 1:8-9? The Father called the Son "God", is to you the Father was wrong in those verses?

It's actually you who are choosing to deny the fact that Hebrews 1:8-9 is meant to be a direct quote of Psalm 45:6-7, where Christ is calling Father His God, the same as Christ does everywhere else. You've already had this shown and explained to you more than once (and not just from me), but wish to ignore hundreds of verses so you can continue to believe in a fantasy (LIE).

Again you evade your line of argument regarding the son of lowercase cat, dog, man etc are lowercase cat, dog, man etc.
Then when it comes to uppercase God, the Son became a lowercase "god"?
That is an inconsistent argument.

This too has already been explained more than once, and is straight out of Scripture (and thus perfectly logical).

Do you really not understand there is only ONE GOD AND FATHER OF US ALL (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29; Sura 2:163)?

How many word "God" in Psa 45:7? One or two?
The first refer to Jesus (Heb1:9) and the second refer to the Father.

A misinterpretation of Deut 6:4 and Mark 12:29, of course there is only one Tetragrammaton, personal name of the Father.
That did not answer the question, why Son of uppercase God had a lowercase god?
Why can't follow your own line of comparison. That would be an inconsistent argument.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Yisra’ěl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one!
Mrk 12:29 And יהושע answered him, “The first of all the commands is, ‘Hear, O Yisra’ěl, יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one.

You didn't answer the question: How can God have a God?

Christ obviously has a God, as Christ plainly stated. And Christ's Father and His God are THE Father and THE God: YHWH or, in English, the "I AM".

Everything that is been personally shared is not only perfectly consistent with itself, it's perfectly consistent with Scripture, which you continue to ignore. Including the verses where Christ very clearly tells us there is ONE God: His Father and His God.

There's only ONE God: YHWH or, in English, the "I AM". That's why we consistently and repeatedly are told there's only ONE God in Psalm 45:6-7, ONE God in Heb. 1:8-9, ONE God in Deuteronomy 6:4, ONE God in Zechariah 14:9, ONE God in Mark 12:29, and ONE God in Sura 2:163.

ONE MEANS ONE; it does NOT mean two or three, nor does 1=2, or 1=3, or 2=1, or 3=1, etc.

And there is ONE Mediator BETWEEN God and man: Christ, the Saviour.

And what did Christ say about "gods"? He quoted the psalmist, and stated that "gods" = the sons of God = The children of the Most High in the context of explaining what a spiritual-Being is. There are many gods (spiritual-Beings/sons of God), including the first one that God created, whom God anointed, hence the name of God's Anointed: The Messiah/Christ.

That's why Christ has FELLOW spiritual-Beings. ALL of the CREATED spiritual-Beings/sons of God (aka "gods", angels, souls, jinns) are PEERS. It is THE ONE TRUE GOD that set His Anointed One (Christ) apart and above Christ's fellows by creating Christ FIRST.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the "I AM", and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the "I AM", and Satan came also among them to present himself before the "I AM".

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated inequity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy FELLOWS (spirit-beings).

FELLOWS
noun

1: comrades, associates (in this specific matter they are all the sons of God)

2a: those equal in rank, power, or character : peers (in this specific matter they are all the sons of God)

3: members of a group having common characteristics (in this specific matter they are all the sons of God)

Already answered (Psa 45:6-7, Heb1:8-9) yes, Jesus have a God, the Father.
Also the Father called Jesus "God". Is the Father wrong when He called Jesus God?

Yes, Jesus is the I am in John 8:58

Jhn 8:58 יהושע said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Aḇraham came to be, I am.”e Footnote: eSee also Jhn 1:1, Jhn 6:62, Jhn 17:5, Heb 11:26

So, you don't believe the Father's own words that called Jesus God in Psa 45:6-7, Heb 1:8-9?
I believe you know how to count, can't you see the two word "God" in Psa 45:7 and Heb 1:9?
The first one refer to Jesus and the second on refer to the Father.
Maybe you are using your paraphrase translations that change original Bible words that you cannot see the two word "God" in those verses. And you cannot look upon its meaning through Bible lexicons.

Husband and wife in Gen 2:24, Scripture count them ONE flesh.
And the group who believed were ONE heart and ONE being.(Acts 4:32)

Act 4:32 And the group of those who believed were of one heart and one being. And no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had all in common.

Are there any contentions to Jesus mentioned of "gods" and "sons of God" as really God?
I believe only to Jesus by the Arians, they add and changed Bible words just to align with their belief.
That's why they heavily relied to paraphrase translations.

I believe you can see now the word "God" in your quoted Heb 1:9 above, I bolded and colored red.
I know that you know that it refer to Jesus.

Back again to the evaded question as Deut 6:4 and Mark 12:29 was misinterpreted and fail to address the question.
Why Son of uppercase God had a lowercase god?
Why you can't follow your own line of comparison. Would you accept that you've presented an inconsistent argument.
Visit your previous comparison and explain honestly and logically the question above.

[A Freeman]

Already answered (Psa 45:6-7, Heb1:8-9) yes, Jesus have a God, the Father.

Which proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus is/was NOT God.

Also the Father called Jesus "God". Is the Father wrong when He called Jesus God?

No, Father NEVER referred to Jesus as "God". Not in Hebrews 1:8 nor anywhere else in Scripture. Can you really not see that in making this claim you're contradicting your own statement above about Jesus having a God?

Yes, Jesus is the I am in John 8:58

Jhn 8:58 יהושע said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Aḇraham came to be, I am.”e Footnote: eSee also Jhn 1:1, Jhn 6:62, Jhn 17:5, Heb 11:26

No, Jesus was NOT claiming to be God, and clearly didn't say I am the "I AM". Christ, through the mouth of Jesus, was telling us about meeting Abraham in a previous incarnation as MELCHIZEDEK.

The reason for using present tense is simple: if Christ were to say "before Abraham was, I existed" (past tense) it would infer that Christ--the immortal spiritual-Being whom God created first--no longer exists, which is ridiculous.

Hebrews 13:8 Christ the Saviour the same yesterday, and today, and forever.

Do you believe Paul was also claiming to be God when he said the following?

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

If you were to say "I am Capbook" should people conclude that you're claiming to be God? Are you starting to see how ridiculous it is to pretend that Jesus was claiming to be God in John 8:58?

The remainder of your reply is yet another attempt to pretend that 2=1 which will NEVER work.

If we, as individual spiritual-Beings are truly the children of God, then we will be AT ONE with Father to DO His Will, just as Christ is AT ONE with Father (The Only True God) to DO Father's Will.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the Will of Him that sent me.


John 17:17-25
17:17 Sanctify them through Thy Truth: Thy Word is Truth.
17:18 As Thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the Truth.
17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe me through their word;
17:21 That they all may be ONE; as Thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in Thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are One:
17:23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.
17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my Glory, which Thou hast GIVEN me: for Thou lovedst me BEFORE the foundation of the world.
17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I know Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent me.


Until one empties their mind of ALL of the doctrines and traditions of men like the "trinity" and/or its "Jesus is God" variant, and see Father and His Christ for Who they really are (a true, spiritual Father-Son relationship, where the Father created the Son), they will NEVER get to know either one of Them.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit The Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Romans 1:22-25
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the Truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[Capbook]

Already answered (Psa 45:6-7, Heb1:8-9) yes, Jesus have a God, the Father.

Which proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus is/was NOT God.

Also the Father called Jesus "God". Is the Father wrong when He called Jesus God?

No, Father NEVER referred to Jesus as "God". Not in Hebrews 1:8 nor anywhere else in Scripture. Can you really not see that in making this claim you're contradicting your own statement above about Jesus having a God?

Yes, Jesus is the I am in John 8:58

Jhn 8:58 יהושע said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Aḇraham came to be, I am.”e Footnote: eSee also Jhn 1:1, Jhn 6:62, Jhn 17:5, Heb 11:26

No, Jesus was NOT claiming to be God, and clearly didn't say I am the "I AM". Christ, through the mouth of Jesus, was telling us about meeting Abraham in a previous incarnation as MELCHIZEDEK.

The reason for using present tense is simple: if Christ were to say "before Abraham was, I existed" (past tense) it would infer that Christ--the immortal spiritual-Being whom God created first--no longer exists, which is ridiculous.

Hebrews 13:8 Christ the Saviour the same yesterday, and today, and forever.

Do you believe Paul was also claiming to be God when he said the following?

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

If you were to say "I am Capbook" should people conclude that you're claiming to be God? Are you starting to see how ridiculous it is to pretend that Jesus was claiming to be God in John 8:58?

The remainder of your reply is yet another attempt to pretend that 2=1 which will NEVER work.

If we, as individual spiritual-Beings are truly the children of God, then we will be AT ONE with Father to DO His Will, just as Christ is AT ONE with Father (The Only True God) to DO Father's Will.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the Will of Him that sent me.


John 17:17-25
17:17 Sanctify them through Thy Truth: Thy Word is Truth.
17:18 As Thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the Truth.
17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe me through their word;
17:21 That they all may be ONE; as Thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in Thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are One:
17:23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.
17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my Glory, which Thou hast GIVEN me: for Thou lovedst me BEFORE the foundation of the world.
17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I know Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent me.


Until one empties their mind of ALL of the doctrines and traditions of men like the "trinity" and/or its "Jesus is God" variant, and see Father and His Christ for Who they really are (a true, spiritual Father-Son relationship, where the Father created the Son), they will NEVER get to know either one of Them.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit The Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Romans 1:22-25
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the Truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen.

So, what does the word "God" mean when the Father said it to the Son in Heb 1:8?
Denial and opinion are nothing without evidence to prove your point.

Another denial, the text read "I AM", I believe we have eyes but cannot see.
Do the word of God in John 8:58 not mentioned the word "I AM"?
Just denial and opinion again without evidence presenting the same verse that bear no "I AM'.

Are there any contentions that Paul is really God?
It's just only on Jesus by the Arians, that adds and change words of the Bible to align with their belief.

The will of the Father is to save mankind, that's why Jesus emptied the form of God and takes the form of a servant in the likeness of man and obedient to the Father even unto death for us to have hope of reconciliation to the Father in faith.
Let me present this simple logic to you;
1. Jesus as in the form of a servant, is He man or not?
2. Jesus as in the form of God, is He God or not? Why your honest and logical answer on the first question cannot be applied to the second one. Why and explain?

The interpretation of Jesus as created being is a misinterpretation just like how you interpret Deut 6:4 and Mark 12:29.

Yes, someone professing to be wise, but became fool when proven that misinterpretation of the above two verses and others.

Back again to the evaded question as the misunderstood Deut 6:4 and Mark 12:29 fail to address the question.
Why Son of uppercase God had a lowercase god?
Why you can't follow your own line of comparison. Would you accept that you've presented an inconsistent argument.
Visit your previous comparison and explain honestly and logically the question above.

[A Freeman]

Already answered (Psa 45:6-7, Heb1:8-9) yes, Jesus have a God, the Father.

Which proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus is/was NOT God.

Also the Father called Jesus "God". Is the Father wrong when He called Jesus God?

No, Father NEVER referred to Jesus as "God". Not in Hebrews 1:8 nor anywhere else in Scripture. Can you really not see that in making this claim you're contradicting your own statement above about Jesus having a God?

Yes, Jesus is the I am in John 8:58

Jhn 8:58 יהושע said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Aḇraham came to be, I am.”e Footnote: eSee also Jhn 1:1, Jhn 6:62, Jhn 17:5, Heb 11:26

No, Jesus was NOT claiming to be God, and clearly didn't say I am the "I AM". Christ, through the mouth of Jesus, was telling us about meeting Abraham in a previous incarnation as MELCHIZEDEK.

The reason for using present tense is simple: if Christ were to say "before Abraham was, I existed" (past tense) it would infer that Christ--the immortal spiritual-Being whom God created first--no longer exists, which is ridiculous.

Hebrews 13:8 Christ the Saviour the same yesterday, and today, and forever.

Do you believe Paul was also claiming to be God when he said the following?

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

If you were to say "I am Capbook" should people conclude that you're claiming to be God? Are you starting to see how ridiculous it is to pretend that Jesus was claiming to be God in John 8:58?

The remainder of your reply is yet another attempt to pretend that 2=1 which will NEVER work.

If we, as individual spiritual-Beings are truly the children of God, then we will be AT ONE with Father to DO His Will, just as Christ is AT ONE with Father (The Only True God) to DO Father's Will.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the Will of Him that sent me.


John 17:17-25
17:17 Sanctify them through Thy Truth: Thy Word is Truth.
17:18 As Thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the Truth.
17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe me through their word;
17:21 That they all may be ONE; as Thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in Thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are One:
17:23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.
17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my Glory, which Thou hast GIVEN me: for Thou lovedst me BEFORE the foundation of the world.
17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I know Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent me.


Until one empties their mind of ALL of the doctrines and traditions of men like the "trinity" and/or its "Jesus is God" variant, and see Father and His Christ for Who they really are (a true, spiritual Father-Son relationship, where the Father created the Son), they will NEVER get to know either one of Them.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit The Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Romans 1:22-25
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the Truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen.

So, what does the word "God" mean when the Father said it to the Son in Heb 1:8?
Denial and opinion are nothing without evidence to prove your point.

Another denial, the text read "I AM", I believe we have eyes but cannot see.
Do the word of God in John 8:58 not mentioned the word "I AM"?
Just denial and opinion again without evidence presenting the same verse that bear no "I AM'.

Are there any contentions that Paul is really God?
It's just only on Jesus by the Arians, that adds and change words of the Bible to align with their belief.

The will of the Father is to save mankind, that's why Jesus emptied the form of God and takes the form of a servant in the likeness of man and obedient to the Father even unto death for us to have hope of reconciliation to the Father in faith.
Let me present this simple logic to you;
1. Jesus as in the form of a servant, is He man or not?
2. Jesus as in the form of God, is He God or not? Why your honest and logical answer on the first question cannot be applied to the second one. Why and explain?

The interpretation of Jesus as created being is a misinterpretation just like how you interpret Deut 6:4 and Mark 12:29.

Yes, someone professing to be wise, but became fool when proven that misinterpretation of the above two verses and others.

Back again to the evaded question as the misunderstood Deut 6:4 and Mark 12:29 fail to address the question.
Why Son of uppercase God had a lowercase god?
Why you can't follow your own line of comparison. Would you accept that you've presented an inconsistent argument.
Visit your previous comparison and explain honestly and logically the question above.

You just keep repeating the same opinions and false accusations, hoping they will somehow work. They won't.

We have the following COMMANDMENT from God's Law concerning the NEED for multiple witnesses:

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall NOT rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

We have it directly from God, in His Law, that a matter to be established it MUST have multiple witnesses.

The same holds true for Scripture, because God is NOT a hypocrite, and follows His own Law. That's why when someone comes along and says "look, this ONE verse says something that no other verse in Scripture says according to my interpretation of it", we can be absolutely certain that private interpretation of that ONE verse is WRONG.

In addition to The Law, we have the following references to this exact issue provided to us in the Book of Enoch, again in the New Covenant/Testament and also a confirmation of it in the Koran/Quran.

Enoch 104:8-11

THE INCORRECT WRITING OF GOD'S WORDS PROPHESIED:-

104:8 They shall speak evil things; they shall utter falsehood (ch. 97:2); create a great creation (false religions and religious traditions and technology); and compose books of their own words (books of man-made laws; books of the religious traditions of their fathers; novels; etc.; etc.; etc. - ch. 68:13).

HOW TO RECOGNISE AND CORRECT THE MISTAKES:-

But when they shall write correctly all My words in their own languages,
104:9 They (My words) shall neither change nor diminish (Mark 13:31; Matt. 5:17-19); but when all shall be written correctly; ALL, which from the first I have uttered concerning them SHALL CONCUR (John 10:35; Sura 15:9).
104:10 Another secret also I point out. To the righteous and the wise shall be given Books of joy, of integrity, and of great Wisdom. To them shall Books be given (Rev. 2:17), in which they shall believe (and Live by);
104:11 And in which they shall rejoice. And all the righteous shall be rewarded, who from these (Books) shall acquire the Knowledge of The Straight Way.

2 Peter 1:19-20
1:19 We have also the more sure word of Prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye TAKE HEED, as unto a Light that shineth in a dark place, until the Day dawn, and the Morning Star (Rev. 30:16) arise in your hearts:
1:20 Knowing this first, that no Prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

Sura 39:23. "I AM" has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, CONSISTENT WITH ITSELF, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of "I AM"'s praises (Prov. 1:7; 9:10). Such is the Guidance from "I AM": He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as "I AM" leaves to stray, can have none to guide.

-------

The reason the Book of Enoch was wrongly removed from the Bible by the Roman Catholic church should be self-evident: it was to try to hide their very obvious attempts at tampering from the reader (e.g. their additions and intentional mistranslations, e.g. Hebrews 1:8, to 1 John 5:7, Matthew 28:19, Philippians 2:6 and the addition of the adulterous woman story to John 8, which they added around the time of the reformation).

IF the Bible is correctly transcribed and correctly translated into ANY language, it CANNOT have any inconsistencies, i.e. it is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be a single verse that goes against the rest of Scripture.

Psalm 45:6 doesn't have the words in it "But unto the Son he saith", which clearly means that Hebrews 1:8 has been tampered with, as it is meant to be a direct quote of Psalm 45:6. And, as anyone can see from what's been shared above, if someone were to wrongly interpret it to be claiming that the Son is God, then they very obviously are in error, because NOWHERE in all of Scripture does God call His own created Son (Prince Michael/Christ) "God". And that includes Hebrews 1:8.

Everything you've stated about Scripture in this thread is WRONG. You've been shown your errors on multiple occasions, and apparently have no desire to correct your errant viewpoint.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #56]
Hebrews 1:8 has been examined ad nauseum in these threads. It is a twisted version of the scripture, as the original verse in the original Hebrew does not say, "Thy throne O God," but "Your divine throne will last forever. This shows that Christ gets all of his power and authority from his Father, God.

John 8:58 has been also discussed at length. Jesus said, in perfect Greek, "Before Abraham was, I existed." I Am is not even the singular example of what was said at Exodus 3:14. There have been many translators who have worded it differently. Rotherham translated it as "I will become whatsoever I please," Leeser: "I will be that I will be," and Everett Fox: "I will be there." So could Jesus have said at John 8:58, "Before Abraham was, I Will? You can see how ridiculous it is to center 8:58 around Exodus 3:14.

[A Freeman]

Excerpt below from:
https://www.angelfire.com/space/thegosp ... ws1_8.html

3. God's God

A very serious problem with the Trinitarian translation is the resulting implications of their translation.

"But to the Son, [God] says, Your throne, 'O God, is forever and ever. The sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom/kingship. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your partners.'" (Hebrews 1:8-9)

The result of this translation is that God has a God and God's God anoints God so that God's God would make God to be above God's peers. It's unbelievably ludicrous in multiple ways.

Even further, if we follow the "O God" translation to it's logical conclusion, we have even more preposterous consequences. Consider verses such as Psalm 43:4, "I shall praise You, O God, my God." In Scripture, when anyone addresses the God of Israel as "O God" it means they are acknowledging that the addressee is their God. For this reason, it is absurd to suggest God the Father would address anyone as "O God" since it would imply the son is the Father's God.

The Trinitarian translation results in a situation where God addressed someone else as God and then says that God's God anoints God so that God will be above God's peers. Let the reader appreciate the utter implausibility of such a claim.

[placebofactor]

Excerpt below from:
https://www.angelfire.com/space/thegosp ... ws1_8.html

3. God's God

A very serious problem with the Trinitarian translation is the resulting implications of their translation.

"But to the Son, [God] says, Your throne, 'O God, is forever and ever. The sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom/kingship. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your partners.'" (Hebrews 1:8-9)

The result of this translation is that God has a God and God's God anoints God so that God's God would make God to be above God's peers. It's unbelievably ludicrous in multiple ways.

Even further, if we follow the "O God" translation to it's logical conclusion, we have even more preposterous consequences. Consider verses such as Psalm 43:4, "I shall praise You, O God, my God." In Scripture, when anyone addresses the God of Israel as "O God" it means they are acknowledging that the addressee is their God. For this reason, it is absurd to suggest God the Father would address anyone as "O God" since it would imply the son is the Father's God.

The Trinitarian translation results in a situation where God addressed someone else as God and then says that God's God anoints God so that God will be above God's peers. Let the reader appreciate the utter implausibility of such a claim.

I love it when certain people think they know more about translation than all the thousands of great translators and commentators that have gone before us. Let me ask you skeptics, do you have a degree in ancient Greek and Hebrew translation? Have you ever had access to the original manuscripts and examined them yourself? If you haven't, then, how in the world can you continue to say those who have degrees and those who are qualified, and those who have examined the ancient manuscripts, don't know what they're talking about? Pride is one of the great sins of the Bible.

The relationship between the Father and Son is one of the great mysteries of the Bible. My advice: give Jesus Christ the same honor you pay to the Father. Jesus will be the husband of the bride; it's the Father who picked the bride for his Son, and she had better stand by his side as a loving wife, or she will be given a bill of divorcement. My advice, stand on the side of caution.

[A Freeman]

I love it when certain people think they know more about translation than all the thousands of great translators and commentators that have gone before us.

John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

If you haven't, then, how in the world can you continue to say those who have degrees and those who are qualified, and those who have examined the ancient manuscripts, don't know what they're talking about? Pride is one of the great sins of the Bible.

Matthew 15:13-14
15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath NOT planted, shall be rooted up.
15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch (or Pit).

The relationship between the Father and Son is one of the great mysteries of the Bible.

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, and Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast sent.