Jesus Way of Shepherding

[OneJack]

Jesus Way of Shepherding - COMING to and FOLLOWING the Lord Jesus Christ until the end,

Let's examine closely the flow of actions between the sheep and the Lord regarding salvation:


27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.


28. And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Read between the lines:

1. When we hear the voice of the Lord Jesus, we are known by Him.

2. When we follow the Lord Jesus, He gives us:

a) eternal life,
b) we shall never perish, and
c) no one can pluck us out of His hand.

There is no teaching of Jesus about 'free gift' or 'by grace, and the belief in the finished work of Christ to be saved, as you teach it today. Instead, those teachings are from Paul. Paul is not Jesus, even if you say he was sent by the Lord."

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #15]

What are these souls under the altar, which is not here on earth?

A soul is literally a living breathing physical creature, Revelation is here in symbolic language speaking of God's intent to execute vengence for the lives of the righteous (compare Genesis 4:10)

[OneJack]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #21]

If souls where physical bodies in nature, how would they enter heaven, as portray in the scenario under the altar in heaven?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #21]

If souls where physical bodies in nature ....

It is not "if" , that souls are physical in nature is a biblical fact. The Hebrew word for "soul" is NEPHESH. Here are some scriptures that speak about SOULS

The Bible says that the soul can swim in the sea, work, crave food, eat, obey laws, and touch a dead body.

GENESIS 1:21
And God created4 great whales, and every living creature [Heb. nephesh : SOUL] that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly

LEVITICUS 5:2
Or if a SOUL [Heb. nephesh ] touch any unclean thing, whether [it be] a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and [if] it be hidden8 from him; he also shall be unclean,

LEVITICUS 5:2
But the soul [Heb. nephesh ] that eateth [ of] the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that [pertain] unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off8 from his people.

(also see Leviticus 23:30; Deuteronomy 12:20; Romans 13:1)

ChatGPT


Summary Table

Genesis 2:7 Man became a living soul = whole physical living being.

Genesis 1 (various verses) Nephesh applies to animals"purely biological beings.

Leviticus 17:11 Physical life located in the blood"the material life-force.

Numbers 19:11 / Lev 21:11 Nephesh = dead body (corpse), a physical form.

Ezekiel 18:4,20 Soul (nephesh) sins and dies"clearly mortal and physical.

Psalms, Jonah, Jeremiah Nephesh = life energy/endurance in physical distress.

Scholarly Context

Modern biblical scholarship generally agrees: the Hebrew word nephesh doesnt denote an immortal, immaterial soul, but rather a living, physical being"breathing, alive, mortal. For example, Genesis 2:7 is better rendered as living being, not a soul separate from the body.
Wikipedia

RELATED POSTS

Should Revelation be taken to mean SOULS are literally in heaven under an altar?
viewtopic.php?p=1174910#p1174910

[OneJack]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #23]

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

[Capbook]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #23]

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Is there any Bible verses to support this Mat 10:28 proof text?

[OneJack]

[Replying to Capbook in post #25]

OneJack wrote:
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #23]

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Is there any Bible verses to support this Mat 10:28 proof text?

9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

[Capbook]

9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

It seems this contradict to your proof text I colored red above that souls were already being slain before the judgement of hell. Contrary to your interpretation of soul's immortality.

10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I may interpret it as "avenge our blood (death) that dwell on earth. Where the souls being slain in verse 9, they cried to God "how long that God not judge and avenge their blood". Proof that no judgement of hell yet but many souls were already slain.

11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This verse speaks again of deaths to their fellow servants and brethren as souls mentioned in verse 9, still before judgement of hell.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Capbook in post #27]

OneJack wrote
9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

It seems this contradict to your proof text I colored red above that souls were already being slain before the judgement of hell. Contrary to your interpretation of soul's immortality.

Though you said it seems, still, do not add your opinion to the verse. Where in the verse is your addendum, souls were already being slain before the judgement of hell, are you kidding me? No one could be able to slain souls, but the Living Christ Jesus.

Whats written is souls of them and them that were slain. The them were the ones slain, not the souls of the them. The scene is not on the Earth. The bodies of the them were slain here on Earth (Rev 6:11), but the souls are still alive in heaven under the altar.

OneJack wrote:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I may interpret it as "avenge our blood (death) that dwell on earth. Where the souls being slain in verse 9, they cried to God "how long that God not judge and avenge their blood". Proof that no judgement of hell yet but many souls were already slain.

What souls being slain in verse 9 are you talking about? And whos slaying them? What do you mean by being slain and where did you get that phrase?

OneJack wrote:
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This verse speaks again of deaths to their fellow servants and brethren as souls mentioned in verse 9, still before judgement of hell.

Whats written is this, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Do not adulterate the verse with your opinion. The phrase should be killed refers to the bodies here on Earth of their fellow servants also and their brethren, as the them(not the souls) in verse 9 were killed.

[Capbook]

9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

It seems this contradict to your proof text I colored red above that souls were already being slain before the judgement of hell. Contrary to your interpretation of soul's immortality.

Though you said it seems, still, do not add your opinion to the verse. Where in the verse is your addendum, souls were already being slain before the judgement of hell, are you kidding me? No one could be able to slain souls, but the Living Christ Jesus.

Whats written is souls of them and them that were slain. The them were the ones slain, not the souls of the them. The scene is not on the Earth. The bodies of the them were slain here on Earth (Rev 6:11), but the souls are still alive in heaven under the altar.

The verse 9 does not say two "them" I colored blue above, why add? Hope you can answer this question, whose "souls" that were slain?

10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I may interpret it as "avenge our blood (death) that dwell on earth. Where the souls being slain in verse 9, they cried to God "how long that God not judge and avenge their blood". Proof that no judgement of hell yet but many souls were already slain.

What souls being slain in verse 9 are you talking about? And whos slaying them? What do you mean by being slain and where did you get that phrase?

Again, just hoping you will answer the question as, whose "souls" that were slain in verse 9? Just see your top response I colored blue for your ready reference.

11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This verse speaks again of deaths to their fellow servants and brethren as souls mentioned in verse 9, still before judgement of hell.

Whats written is this, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Do not adulterate the verse with your opinion. The phrase should be killed refers to the bodies here on Earth of their fellow servants also and their brethren, as the them(not the souls) in verse 9 were killed.

Do verse 10 mentioned the word "bodies"? Why add? Through context of the three verses, verse 9 speaks of "souls of them that were slain". Then, whose "souls that were slain"?
Where literal word for word Bible translation the NASB renders verse 9's phrase as "the souls of those who had been killed."
And verse 10 speaks of How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?
And verse 11 speaks of "until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.
Verses below renders the clear truth that "souls" are not immortal.

(NASB) Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
(NASB) Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?
(NASB) Rev 6:11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Capbook in post #29]

The verse 9 does not say two "them" I colored blue above, why add? Hope you can answer this question, whose "souls" that were slain?

Again, just hoping you will answer the question as, whose "souls" that were slain in verse 9? Just see your top response I colored blue for your ready reference.

I just split the them to emphasize the following examples, just for clarity.

1. The souls of John, Peter, and Paul., and

2. John, Peter, and Paul that were slain.

Going back to the original statement, we have,

The souls of them [John, Peter, and Paul] that were slain

Rev 6:10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Without spewing mud and lava, murky narratives can be avoided. Clearly, the 'them' that were slain were flesh and blood " human bodies here on earth. However, the killers weren't able to kill the souls of those human bodies, which surely decomposed in the grave.

Do verse 10 mentioned the word "bodies"? Why add? Through context of the three verses, verse 9 speaks of "souls of them that were slain". Then, whose "souls that were slain"?

The Lord Jesus, through the Son, said,

See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me. Touch me and see, for a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.

Where there's flesh, there's blood, and flesh, blood, and bone make up a body. Therefore, the bodies (referenced by 'blood' in verse 10) were the ones slain, while the souls were taken up under the altar in a place beyond our world.