Where's God?

[POI]

Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[SimpleLayman]

I too have asked for this. In the back of my mind I wonder if it'd feel like a chore to Jesus, just popping in and saying hello. I think, well I must not have a prophetic destiny. My utility may be minimal. I'm not sure. I've wondered if that sort of communication requires that you have certain bloodlines, maybe a degree of spiritual cleanliness. Then I read stories about him appearing in the dreams of muslims, some in the waking world about to go out and slaughter innocents in the name of Allah, then they turn around and change their life. Then I ponder, why them, if that's true? Is it my fate to remain enslaved to iniquity, just biding my time until I meet my maker and Christ tells me, depart from me, I never knew you? You weren't strong enough, smart enough, wise enough, clean enough, and you were hopeless.

I've had all of these thoughts. The thing that brought me to at the very least say prayers and hope to god this tiny little seed that's barely visible that I call my faith grows into something was a dream; But you can only put so much stock in dreams, especially if they cease over time and you find yourself still enslaved to iniquity. My vices are gambling and porn. One would imagine a saved man would overcome such vices with ease, but the truth is, I think we drown out the little seed given to us over time, bury it, and deny we have any authority whatsoever to free ourselves through Christ. Perhaps that is fitting. I recall freeing myself of tobacco. Not having the slightest urge to smoke. Then, out of simple habbit, I chose to enslave myself to poison, yet again.

The dream I had was basically me following some black entity with red eyes down into somewhere I knew I didn't want to go when I became somewhat lucid in the middle of it. Then a thunderous voice that scared the hell out of everyone, including myself said stop. That was it. Other dreams were me feeling like I'm posessed within the dream, not when I'm awake. In the dream just filled with rage and bloodlust, lashing out like a madman with no control, then waking and wondering, what the hell was that about, I'm not even an angry person to my knowledge. Another dream I had it wanted to pull me into a dark room, and I said the name of Jesus and the thing was in true terror. Crazy, cuz I wasn't even brought up to believe the name of Jesus had any power. Once again, wake up and wonder, why the hell did I say that and why the hell did it terrify the crap out of whatever the hell it was?

Man, I prayed one night, can't remember exactly what happened then but I was sad as hell, crying, hating my life, I said something, can't even fully recall now and I felt joy like I couldn't explain. Didn't happen before, I felt depressed, it didn't just go away and be replaced by some kind of joy I've never felt before because my brain couldn't take it anymore. It didn't release oxytocin or whatever it was I felt, from zero to 10. Only when I prayed and professed Jesus is lord did that ever happen.

The bible says God will use your tears to soften the hearts. I find myself crying at things I used to laugh about over time. I think I did not do that on my own. How? Why? I'd rather laugh than cry, anyone would. It is a strange endeavor. I find myself, between porn sessions thinking of righteous things and filling immense joy, something else I absolutely did not do before. It changed me, but I fear not enough. I think to myself I chased away the holy spirit if I ever even had it, then I find myself doing these things, thinking things, feeling things I did not do before. I keep no hatred in my heart for anyone. No bitterness that lasts any duration over not getting what I want, maybe briefly in a moment. The constant now, for the most part, is joy. It defied all logic.

I've tried feeling depressed over stuff, thinking negative things over and over, giving myself permission to feel like crap, but it is as a shadow compared to how I remember the abyss feeling at times, somewhere beneath the surface of God's joy that hasn't bothered to leave me. I understand completely where you are coming from. I'm not sure if everyone experienced this, or if they doubt it's profound, maybe they've convinced themselves they had it implanted in their psyche since childhood, they don't recall any profound changes that couldn't have simply been neurotransmitters and hormones being hacked through wishful thinking. This is not my case. This is my testimony to you. Perhaps God will see I have some utility and drop by to say hello, but I do not expect it. I figure he focused on the worst in life, they needed him most, and your salvation does not depend on a quaint hello.

The Lord's joy be upon you

[POI]

[Replying to SimpleLayman in post #271]

Please stick to the topic:

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

1) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
2) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[SimpleLayman]

"I'm not sure if everyone experienced this, or if they doubt it's profound, maybe they've convinced themselves they had it implanted in their psyche since childhood, they don't recall any profound changes that couldn't have simply been neurotransmitters and hormones being hacked through wishful thinking. This is not my case."

I propose that if you were sincere, maybe he did move in your life in more profound ways than literally saying hello in a dream. You see how incredibly low humans fall. Stone cold killers in prison, somehow moved to tears, you see video's such as this. Over some imaginary protagonist in a story they should have no more faith in than Harry Potter. Without a spiritual helper or mover? You profess to have never felt God's presence. I am on topic. Are you certain of this? You spent decades as a devotee, and you experienced nothing more than the occasional flood of endorphins, or maybe not even that much? I do not dispute this, it just surprises me is all. You can think of nothing, over decades?

[POI]

"I'm not sure if everyone experienced this, or if they doubt it's profound, maybe they've convinced themselves they had it implanted in their psyche since childhood, they don't recall any profound changes that couldn't have simply been neurotransmitters and hormones being hacked through wishful thinking. This is not my case."

I propose that if you were sincere, maybe he did move in your life in more profound ways than literally saying hello in a dream. You see how incredibly low humans fall. Stone cold killers in prison, somehow moved to tears, you see video's such as this. Over some imaginary protagonist in a story they should have no more faith in than Harry Potter. Without a spiritual helper or mover? You profess to have never felt God's presence. I am on topic. Are you certain of this? You spent decades as a devotee, and you experienced nothing more than the occasional flood of endorphins, or maybe not even that much? I do not dispute this, it just surprises me is all. You can think of nothing, over decades?

To be clear here, are you insinuating that the answer to the debate question is D)?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

*********************************

If so, please address the following:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

[SimpleLayman]

[Replying to POI in post #274] It's clearly not a matter of intelligence. There are very sharp atheists whom used to be deep in their faith. At some point, this is common for their testimonials to include that they've never felt the presence of God. I thought God's grace falls on everyone, and believers are basically basking in it when praising God, but non-believers do not always feel starved of joy. This is what I've always thought what was said. I am asking if you are certain that you've never experienced God's grace in prayer, or if you think it was nothing in hindsight? Even when you see how far man can fall, they seem starved of it to such a degree, once one ray of it shines upon their face even stone cold killers weep in front of other stone cold killers. I've seen this in a video. Do you truly believe that because you are not starved for joy while you deny your father in heaven that you experienced nothing? I've felt depression at times as anyone does, but I've also felt what I only describe as a glowing heart when I spend time reflecting on holy things and imagining God. Things separate and apart from this world, and far from what is expected of me by the world, allowing me to bask in his grace.

I imagine things, what it is to be holy and righteous, how I'd act, how I'd feel, and at times it's so clear to me what that looks like, and the sheer thought of rising from a low place to a place that high is pure delight. It makes no damn sense to me how this is even possible coming from never thinking any of this growing up. Never conjuring up such feelings through "nice" thoughts, and I've had many nice thoughts. I could not conjure up the same thing in my past. What even is the presence of God if not a spiritual helper and mover for mankind that is most felt the lower you find yourself.

I imagine over time it can dem, it has with me too. I did not instantly go to devout Christian, nor am I devout now through anything other than thought and occasional prayer. I started seeking out bits and pieces of knowledge online, listening to atheists and spiritual leaders alike. I thought to myself feelings alone will not sway me when I have other feelings too that are keeping me from realizing this vision of righteousness that came to me. Those other feelings in the flesh as well as in the mind that keep seeking the things out that have been conditioned for it to seek out felt stronger, obviously; Or I'd be a saint by now, having conquered the flesh.

I do not claim to have achieved the vision of life that fills my heart with unending joy; I chase it away every time, sometimes sooner than others. Sometimes when I'm really feeling it, imagining things, my mind will remind me I don't belong there, just a flash of something perverted and I've had my fill for the day; but it's there and it's attainable through the altar of salvation, I simply can not bring myself to ascend to such heights now without knocking myself back down to earth at some point. I have not even been able to extinguish every wicked thought continuously, only in moments of clarity when I choose to reflect on the things revealed to me about Christ and his goodness.

Why tell you this? It is not that you are dumb, but it is possible in my mind you think of God's presence as something so profound that you can't even envision it being merely the personification of love and a spiritual mover, someone who can not only cause pharaoh's heart to grow obstinate, but soften them as well when he finds a willing companion to join him on his journey to bring all of creation back to a high place.

[POI]

[Replying to SimpleLayman in post #275]

Please pick one:

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

*********************************

Then, please address the 6 premises. If you can find fault in one of them (or more), please do so. If you cannot, then it is likely that god is nowhere, because he is not real.

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

[Haven]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

I feel the same way (as an ex-Christian who was raised fundamentalist evangelical). When I left the faith in my early 20s, I sincerely wanted God to reach out to me, rescue my faith from my doubts (these posts are still here, on this site, from when I was going through the questioning process).

Instead, all I found was more and more evidence against Christian theism (and theism more generally), and even the strongest theistic arguments were lacking. E feels like the most reasonable conclusion given the evidence.

[SimpleLayman]

[Replying to POI in post #276] If I grant you all of your claims with absolutely zero context, since you refuse to provide any, I'd argue that he has not chosen to reveal himself to you in a manner beyond what the vast majority of Christians report. Something akin to what I just said to you that you somehow find to be of zero help in finding the right answer here. You want me to simply presuppose your failings and experiences and start from there. I have, now where do we go? Some example saying he should have shaken your hand in a dream by now or something?

[SimpleLayman]

[Replying to Haven in post #277] You couldn't even so much as imagine living a life that is so pure and true your heart glows and you praise God just at the thought of it? You couldn't experience that? Was it always just pure intimidation, or you never really had the feeling that Jesus is in such a high place just thinking about achieving such heights was joyous? I don't understand the Atheists who claim they devoted decades of their life to something they couldn't feel anything for. It is profound, is it not? That our hearts glow at the thought of higher places rather than for all the crap that keeps us down here? This is my revelation, and I thought atleast this was shared by all Christians.

[POI]

I'd argue that he has not chosen to reveal himself to you in a manner beyond what the vast majority of Christians report.

Do you agree with the following premises? If not, why?

P1) God exists
P2) God want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him
P3) God is capable of communicating
P4) God also communicates his message in a way in which the recipients understand and also could no longer deny

If you agree with the above, then your answer above makes no logical sense.