Jesus Way of Shepherding

[OneJack]

Jesus Way of Shepherding - COMING to and FOLLOWING the Lord Jesus Christ until the end,

Let's examine closely the flow of actions between the sheep and the Lord regarding salvation:


27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.


28. And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Read between the lines:

1. When we hear the voice of the Lord Jesus, we are known by Him.

2. When we follow the Lord Jesus, He gives us:

a) eternal life,
b) we shall never perish, and
c) no one can pluck us out of His hand.

There is no teaching of Jesus about 'free gift' or 'by grace, and the belief in the finished work of Christ to be saved, as you teach it today. Instead, those teachings are from Paul. Paul is not Jesus, even if you say he was sent by the Lord."

[tam]

Peace to you OneJack,

Jesus Way of Shepherding - COMING to and FOLLOWING the Lord Jesus Christ until the end,

Well the Shepherd does the leading and the calling. The sheep (if indeed they are HIS sheep, and so know HIS voice) do the listening, the coming, the following.

Let's examine closely the flow of actions between the sheep and the Lord regarding salvation:


27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.


28. And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Read between the lines:

Or maybe just listen to what He has said rather than putting our own spin on it?

1. When we hear the voice of the Lord Jesus, we are known by Him.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

His sheep hear/listen to His voice (Jaheshua, the Chosen One of JAH).

He is differentiating between His sheep and the sheep of someone else.

I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

HIS sheep listen to HIS voice. They don't listen to the voice of a stranger; they will in fact RUN from a stranger (John 10:3-5)

He knows His sheep, and His sheep follow Him.

He is describing His sheep.

2. When we follow the Lord Jesus, He gives us:

a) eternal life,
b) we shall never perish, and
c) no one can pluck us out of His hand.

He does give His sheep eternal life (His sheep shall never perish and no one can pluck His sheep out of His hand.)

There is no teaching of Jesus about 'free gift' or 'by grace,

Just because His sheep listen to His voice and follow Him does not mean that their faith was not given to them - a gift.

"No one comes to the Father except through the Son, and no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them."

Also, the water of life (holy spirit) is a free gift:

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.


The Spirit is Christ Himself.

The Bride is... His Bride, His Church, His Body, His people.

The invitation to come and take that free gift is for anyone who thirsts and anyone who wishes.



Peace again to you.

[tam]

Peace to you all,

I picked out the following comment in the thread:

Also, the Bible is described as alive and active, meaning it continues to speak to people yesterday, today, and tomorrow, guiding, comforting, and convicting, and equipping believers for every good work, shaping character and preparing them to live out their faith effectively.

This verse isn't referring to the bible. This verse is referring to the Word of God. The Word of God WHO is alive and active is Christ.

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

The scribes don't capitalize 'word' here, but we know that Christ is the Word of God. We know that He is alive (and active.) The verse reads a bit differently if we understand that it is speaking about the living Word of God.


Hope that helps.

Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[OneJack]

[Replying to tam in post #91]

Just because His sheep listen to His voice and follow Him does not mean that their faith was not given to them - a gift.

It’s Paul’s doctrine on salvation - by grace, which is a free gift that I’m not in agreement with because the teaching of Jesus about salvation is only by coming to and following Him until the end.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #91]

Just because His sheep listen to His voice and follow Him does not mean that their faith was not given to them - a gift.

It’s Paul’s doctrine on salvation - by grace, which is a free gift that I’m not in agreement with because the teaching of Jesus about salvation is only by coming to and following Him until the end.

I don't think these are in contradiction (though people's misunderstanding of what they mean can make them appear to contradict).

Let's look at the whole verse:

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

We must have faith in Christ (and so also God) to be saved, correct?

Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” / [Jesus] replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."

"For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

"Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life."


It is that faith which is a gift from God.

Remember that there were people from that time who believed that they could be saved by being obedient to that law (impossible, and that was not the purpose of the law). But Christ had said one need only believe in Him (have faith in Him), and He would grant them eternal life. "Faith versus works" appears to have been a big debate at the time. But there is no contradiction because if a person has faith - truly - that faith will lead to works.

But grace (like mercy) is also a gift from God.

Because we sin. None of us is perfect or without sin. But we have Christ - who is our High Priest - who mediates on our behalf (as a priest is supposed to do), so that if/when we sin, we have forgiveness. His blood covers us and we have forgiveness in Him.

Did we do something to earn that or is it a gift?

Consider the word 'forgive'... something GIVEN beforehand. Given. A gift.


**

Now consider the sheep from your OP.

Christ is describing what His sheep will do. He is not commanding people to do something to earn eternal life. He is just describing His sheep. 'This is what my sheep do'... and later to people who did not believe Him, He tells them why: 'but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[OneJack]

[Replying to tam in post #94]

We must have faith in Christ (and so also God) to be saved, correct?

Nicely said, but how can you have faith in Christ? Actually, this is the saving key question leading to the door of the kingdom of God.

Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” / [Jesus] replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."

"For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

"Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life

These are just records of the activities the Lord performed during His actual incarnation by and through the Son, and these things do not save anyone no matter how seriously and religiously he puts this into practice.

But Christ had said one need only believe in Him (have faith in Him), and He would grant them eternal life.

This is not the final statement of Jesus to the rich young ruler in Matt chapter 19, therefore, this is false based on Jesus’ teaching on how to be saved.

Faith versus works" appears to have been a big debate at the time. But there is no contradiction because if a person has faith - truly - that faith will lead to works.

I disagree, no one gets saved by this method, even if you say this is biblical. Having the bible as the manual to salvation is the biggest mistake bible followers have ever done in their quest for the salvation of their soul.

Did we do something to earn that or is it a gift?

A person will surely be doomed to damnation if he does not do something so that his soul gets saved until the end and from eternity to eternity. This is the reason why I say Paul’s doctrine on salvation is FALSE - by grace through faith - as various denominations put this into practice. This is FALSE because this is not what Jesus taught to the rich young ruler, and teaches today to the whole world. Jesus teaching is plain and simple, but its effectivity is until the end.

1. During the time of the apostles,

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

“COME, FOLLOW ME.”

1. Today in our time,

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

“Remember, eternal life and your salvation are in My hands. If you want to be saved, come and draw near to Me. If you want eternal life, come and call upon Me. Trust in Me, because if you don't, you will have no salvation and no eternal life. You will have nowhere to go but to calamity and suffering.”

Christ is describing what His sheep will do. He is not commanding people to do something to earn eternal life. He is just describing His sheep. 'This is what my sheep do'... and later to people who did not believe Him, He tells them why: 'but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

You may have overlooked the role that the sheep have to do, in return, under Jesus’ shepherding, and that is,

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

If you’re under Jesus shepherding today, you know pretty well where in this verse is your role - “hear my voice, and they follow me.”

Hearing and Following Jesus is until the end, so is believing in Jesus. Whatever Jesus commands you to do, you should do it with all your heart to maintain your salvation.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #94]

We must have faith in Christ (and so also God) to be saved, correct?

Nicely said, but how can you have faith in Christ? Actually, this is the saving key question leading to the door of the kingdom of God.

I am not sure I understand your question, other than to say that faith is a gift that was given to me by God.

By faith, I know that the things He says (and promises) are true. Because I love Him (though He loved me first), I obey His commands.

"The One who has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me."

Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” / [Jesus] replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."

"For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

"Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life

These are just records of the activities the Lord performed during His actual incarnation by and through the Son, and these things do not save anyone no matter how seriously and religiously he puts this into practice.

OneJack, these are His words. He said that people who believe in Him have eternal life.

But Christ had said one need only believe in Him (have faith in Him), and He would grant them eternal life.

This is not the final statement of Jesus to the rich young ruler in Matt chapter 19, therefore, this is false based on Jesus’ teaching on how to be saved.

You don't think it would have taken faith (and love) for the rich young man to have given up his wealth, then to come and follow Christ?

Faith versus works" appears to have been a big debate at the time. But there is no contradiction because if a person has faith - truly - that faith will lead to works.

I disagree, no one gets saved by this method, even if you say this is biblical. Having the bible as the manual to salvation is the biggest mistake bible followers have ever done in their quest for the salvation of their soul.

I'm not a bible follower. I am one who follows Christ.

And I'm just pointing out that faith and works are not in contradiction. Faith should lead to works.

Did we do something to earn that or is it a gift?

A person will surely be doomed to damnation if he does not do something so that his soul gets saved until the end and from eternity to eternity. This is the reason why I say Paul’s doctrine on salvation is FALSE - by grace through faith - as various denominations put this into practice.

Perhaps the doctrine as various denominations put into practice is incorrect. I don't know how various denominations put this into practice.

I am talking about the fact that Christ said 'the one who believes in Him shall have eternal life."

This is FALSE because this is not what Jesus taught to the rich young ruler, and teaches today to the whole world. Jesus teaching is plain and simple, but its effectivity is until the end.

The issue with the rich young ruler was a lack of faith (and perhaps also a greater love for wealth than for Christ.)

1. During the time of the apostles,

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

“COME, FOLLOW ME.”

He says the same thing today. I have no argument with you on His words here. If Noah hadn't built and boarded the ark, how would he have been saved from the flood? But he had to have had faith FIRST. Faith enough to hear God, faith (and love) enough to obey.

Christ is the ark now. It wouldn't do much good to say we believe, and then not bother to come to Him or 'get on the ark'.

1. Today in our time,

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

Jesus is not (and never was) the actual name of the Christ, the Son of God. I'm not sure if you're using it because you think it is the English version of His name, but it is not (that would be closer to Joshua.)

“Remember, eternal life and your salvation are in My hands. If you want to be saved, come and draw near to Me. If you want eternal life, come and call upon Me. Trust in Me,

I just want to point out the part in bold. Can you trust someone you don't have faith in? Why would anyone follow someone they did not first have faith in?

Christ is describing what His sheep will do. He is not commanding people to do something to earn eternal life. He is just describing His sheep. 'This is what my sheep do'... and later to people who did not believe Him, He tells them why: 'but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

You may have overlooked the role that the sheep have to do, in return, under Jesus’ shepherding, and that is,

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

If you’re under Jesus shepherding today, you know pretty well where in this verse is your role - “hear my voice, and they follow me.”

I don't overlook what His sheep do. His sheep are revealed as His because they listen to His voice and follow Him (as sheep do with their shepherd). But they were already His sheep. How else would He know to call them by name?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ Jaheshua

[Capbook]

Be that as it may, you still have no use for it in attaining your salvation and knowing God and Jesus.

That belief closed salvation to all dead faithful Bible believing Christians, a direct contradiction to the loving character of the Almighty God whom wants all to be saved.

Actually it’s a direct contradiction to your belief, as well as there’s nothing left for the dead.

Did your living someone mentioned what those dead faithful Bible believing Christians eternal destination?

It’s not for us to meddle in.

Do you living someone offers salvation to all?
Or just to who hear him on 2001 and onward.

[OneJack]

[Replying to tam in post #96]

I am not sure I understand your question, other than to say that faith is a gift that was given to me by God.

If it was given to you by God, God would have talked and interacted with you in a way that mirrored that of Moses’, Paul’s, etc. If not, then it’s just an assumption on what you have read from the scriptures.

By faith, I know that the things He says (and promises) are true.

Has God talked to you, as He did to the prophets of the old and to the apostles during God’s incarnation period? IF not, where then are you coming from with your statement?

Because I love Him (though He loved me first), I obey His commands.

"The One who has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me."

I presumed you’re just quoting from the scriptures, aren’t you?

OneJack, these are His words. He said that people who believe in Him have eternal life.

Allegedly, those are just copies of endless copies of Jesus’ utterances during His incarnation period. Taking them religiously into our hearts and putting them into practice won’t give us our salvation. Jesus’ words are in His mouth and we need to hear those words today from the Lord hence His call to all, saying,

COME, FOLLOW ME.

If we come to and call on the Lord, He’ll respond and teach us what we need for our salvation and in knowing God. It takes an interaction from Jesus for us to be saved.

You don't think it would have taken faith (and love) for the rich young man to have given up his wealth, then to come and follow Christ?

If the rich young ruler will give up his wealth and come to and follow Jesus until the end, he’s absolutely saved, and that’s always! No one gets the right faith in God by just reading and understanding the bible; it needs Jesus’ interaction to be saved.

I'm not a bible follower.

Sorry, but your actions tell me you are, you’re tied to the bible. You believe Jesus by what you read and understood in the bible. If you are not a bible follower, you must not be coming from the bible alone.

I am one who follows Christ.

HOW?

And I'm just pointing out that faith and works are not in contradiction. Faith should lead to works.

Why would you defend biblical passages against contradictions if you were one who follows Christ? What you should be testifying to us [in this forum] are the things that you heard and learned from the real and forever living Christ Jesus, instead of citing biblical passages to warrant your claim and faith in God. The bible is not Jesus, btw.

Perhaps the doctrine as various denominations put into practice is incorrect.

Not perhaps but absolutely, they’re on the wrong track, wrong pick-up, and wrong way.

I don't know how various denominations put this into practice.

They do it biblically but of their own understanding and under the watch and guidance of men pastors, minus, of course, the interactions from Jesus.

I am talking about the fact that Christ said 'the one who believes in Him shall have eternal life.

If I may ask you, what will you believe in Jesus so that He may give you your salvation and eternal life?

The issue with the rich young ruler was a lack of faith (and perhaps also a greater love for wealth than for Christ.)

Even so, what matters most in that scene is not the faith of the rich young ruler but the final words of Jesus, which are,

COME, FOLLOM ME.

This call is applicable to all mankind across all generations.

He says the same thing today. I have no argument with you on His words here. If Noah hadn't built and boarded the ark, how would he have been saved from the flood? But he had to have had faith FIRST. Faith enough to hear God, faith (and love) enough to obey.

Noah was able to talk to and hear God, and those things that He heard from God were religiously followed by Noah. Same thing with us today, whatever we’ll hear from the real and forever living Christ are exactly what we’ll follow with all our hearts and without doubts. It’s a big mistake to follow Jesus by and through the pages of the bible.

Christ is the ark now. It wouldn't do much good to say we believe, and then not bother to come to Him or 'get on the ark'.

Eloquent words [about the Christ] springing from our hearts are good to hear, but in reality, they are not meritorious to our salvation.

I just want to point out the part in bold. Can you trust someone you don't have faith in?

Of course not, why would I trust someone in whom I don't have faith?"

Why would anyone follow someone they did not first have faith in?

Faith comes first before following comes next.

I don't overlook what His sheep do. His sheep are revealed as His because they listen to His voice and follow Him (as sheep do with their shepherd). But they were already His sheep. How else would He know to call them by name?

The issue is the works that His sheep are doing under Jesus’ shepherding. They got saved because they come to and follow Jesus by doing what Jesus commands them to do. Jesus rewarded them salvation because they follow Jesus without doubts, which is FAITH IN JESUS.

[OneJack]

That belief closed salvation to all dead faithful Bible believing Christians, a direct contradiction to the loving character of the Almighty God whom wants all to be saved.

Actually it’s a direct contradiction to your belief, as well as there’s nothing left for the dead.

Did your living someone mentioned what those dead faithful Bible believing Christians eternal destination?

It’s not for us to meddle in.

Do you living someone offers salvation to all?
Or just to who hear him on 2001 and onward.

Yes, Jesus offers salvation to all.

[Capbook]

Actually it’s a direct contradiction to your belief, as well as there’s nothing left for the dead.

Did your living someone mentioned what those dead faithful Bible believing Christians eternal destination?

It’s not for us to meddle in.

Do you living someone offers salvation to all?
Or just to who hear him on 2001 and onward.

Yes, Jesus offers salvation to all.

Do that include those dead faithful Christians whom have not heard your living someone?