what of free will?
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Post #21
The obviousness or...really, quite possibly the dumbest statement I can make would be question this order of the universe.
This domino effect the universe has created. You're implying it's determined a set scenario upon us? I mean, otherwise, I don't see the universe as a truly cognitive force, putting races where it sees fit...but what do I know, I've never been to all ends.
If we were here, at this particular time, and particular place, I would figure it'd be of chance wouldn't it? The universe didn't determine our existence.
So free will in comparison to the universe would imply just that.
The idea of time, puts limit on our personal existence, and therefore limits a portion of our free will.
The fact that we are currently stuck here on earth, sets boundaries against our free will.
But free will is still more implied to freedom of choice, as websters seems to state.
On a universal standpoint, I'd agree to a certain point. There are scenarios set up around us that truly effect our time and place, but how we choose (because we still have choice) to let these things effect us, or how to make choices revolving around them is our own personal choice. And be it the least, or most, its still choices we can choose to make.
To quote Joseph Cambell: "he who yields to the (dictates of time) has yielded to the devil and is in hell."
However, free will is just that, it's determined by the person themselves. Even a slave who's lived in poverty would still have a choice to commit suicide, regardless of that being the smallest free will they have.
We have to first figure out who we are and what we have been identifying with. Religion, political party, etc. How much have we come into question in relation to everyone else, and why.
We consciously believe that these things we've been associating with now and throughout our lives have been the best choices we've made.
Unconsciously, it's what we're being fed that fuels our beliefs.
And if this seems far fetched, consider this. How often do you wake up and actually say, I'm thankful for hot water?
It is within this complacedness that people tend to lose free will.
Might not be completely relevant, but here's an interesting point to consider:
Zimbardo's conclusion of his social experiment:
"Individual behavior is largely under the control of social forces and environmental contigencies rather than personal traits, character, will power, or other empirically unvalidated constructs. Thus we create an Illusion of freedom by attributing more internal control to ourselves, to the individual, than what really exists.
We thus underestimate the power and pervasiness of situational controls over behavior because:
-they are often non-obvious and subtle.
-we often can avoid entering situations where we might be so controlled.
-we label as weak or deviant people in those situations who do behave differently from how we believe we would."
I can therefore conclude that though we are set with these certain scenarios, they tend to go unrecognized. People lose track of time, as they rarely consider how much time they might have spent worrying about a religion that might never exist. And because they hadn't considered anything outside their own beliefs, their free will is voided....lol, out of choice.
So is there free will? Most definately. Or else we wouldn't be giving our opinions. Even regardless of whether the universe or god are saying otherwise, right?
We just have to consider all our limitations, outer and inner before we determine free will.
This domino effect the universe has created. You're implying it's determined a set scenario upon us? I mean, otherwise, I don't see the universe as a truly cognitive force, putting races where it sees fit...but what do I know, I've never been to all ends.
If we were here, at this particular time, and particular place, I would figure it'd be of chance wouldn't it? The universe didn't determine our existence.
So free will in comparison to the universe would imply just that.
The idea of time, puts limit on our personal existence, and therefore limits a portion of our free will.
The fact that we are currently stuck here on earth, sets boundaries against our free will.
But free will is still more implied to freedom of choice, as websters seems to state.
On a universal standpoint, I'd agree to a certain point. There are scenarios set up around us that truly effect our time and place, but how we choose (because we still have choice) to let these things effect us, or how to make choices revolving around them is our own personal choice. And be it the least, or most, its still choices we can choose to make.
To quote Joseph Cambell: "he who yields to the (dictates of time) has yielded to the devil and is in hell."
However, free will is just that, it's determined by the person themselves. Even a slave who's lived in poverty would still have a choice to commit suicide, regardless of that being the smallest free will they have.
We have to first figure out who we are and what we have been identifying with. Religion, political party, etc. How much have we come into question in relation to everyone else, and why.
We consciously believe that these things we've been associating with now and throughout our lives have been the best choices we've made.
Unconsciously, it's what we're being fed that fuels our beliefs.
And if this seems far fetched, consider this. How often do you wake up and actually say, I'm thankful for hot water?
It is within this complacedness that people tend to lose free will.
Might not be completely relevant, but here's an interesting point to consider:
Zimbardo's conclusion of his social experiment:
"Individual behavior is largely under the control of social forces and environmental contigencies rather than personal traits, character, will power, or other empirically unvalidated constructs. Thus we create an Illusion of freedom by attributing more internal control to ourselves, to the individual, than what really exists.
We thus underestimate the power and pervasiness of situational controls over behavior because:
-they are often non-obvious and subtle.
-we often can avoid entering situations where we might be so controlled.
-we label as weak or deviant people in those situations who do behave differently from how we believe we would."
I can therefore conclude that though we are set with these certain scenarios, they tend to go unrecognized. People lose track of time, as they rarely consider how much time they might have spent worrying about a religion that might never exist. And because they hadn't considered anything outside their own beliefs, their free will is voided....lol, out of choice.
So is there free will? Most definately. Or else we wouldn't be giving our opinions. Even regardless of whether the universe or god are saying otherwise, right?
We just have to consider all our limitations, outer and inner before we determine free will.
Post #22
are you saying god does not know about the future?jc_falcons wrote:It does not make sense to me for a Christian to not believe in free will.
If free will does not exist....then God knows everything in advance before it happens.
60-70 percent of the world population is non-Christian. Christianity believes that he or she who rejects Christ will eternally perish(burn).
If God knows the future...then God knows in advance who will reject christ and who will not. Then...God knows in advance who will go to heaven and who will eternally perish.
How can this be?
Why would God send his son to die on the cross for our sins? He knows in advance that 60-70% of todays population...roughly 3.5 billion people...are going to eternally perish when he makes that decision.
What kind of God would do that and make that decision? It does not make sense to me.
Though I am not a Christian...I have a great deal of respect for it and all religions. Unless you support free will however...it does not make sense to me.
are you saying god does not know everything?
are you saying god is bounded by time?
are you saying god is not omnipotent?
if you say yes to the first one, your saying yes to all
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jc_falcons
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Post #23
My point with this was not to give my opinion of free will. Instead, I was questioning how a Christian could doubt free will.
Free will to me means that each individual has the capability to make a decision whereby God does not know in advance what that decision will be.
If God knows the future...he knew in advance that man would sin. So why the need to send his son to earth to die for sins? He already knows in advance who will accept or reject Jesus.
Free will to me means that each individual has the capability to make a decision whereby God does not know in advance what that decision will be.
If God knows the future...he knew in advance that man would sin. So why the need to send his son to earth to die for sins? He already knows in advance who will accept or reject Jesus.
Re: what of free will?
Post #24We are free to do what we want...but are not free to want what we want.gauthier wrote:does free will exist? i believe that it does not
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Re: what of free will?
Post #25lol, random.vfr wrote:We are free to do what we want...but are not free to want what we want.gauthier wrote:does free will exist? i believe that it does not
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
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justifyothers
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Post #26
Some christians do beleive in 'free will', but what you are describing is a disguisting chrisitian denomination called "calvinism'. Your explanantion of it is right on! It is hard to imagine someone willingly beleiving this.jc_falcons wrote:It does not make sense to me for a Christian to not believe in free will.
If free will does not exist....then God knows everything in advance before it happens.
60-70 percent of the world population is non-Christian. Christianity believes that he or she who rejects Christ will eternally perish(burn).
If God knows the future...then God knows in advance who will reject christ and who will not. Then...God knows in advance who will go to heaven and who will eternally perish.
How can this be?
Why would God send his son to die on the cross for our sins? He knows in advance that 60-70% of todays population...roughly 3.5 billion people...are going to eternally perish when he makes that decision.
What kind of God would do that and make that decision? It does not make sense to me.
Though I am not a Christian...I have a great deal of respect for it and all religions. Unless you support free will however...it does not make sense to me.
I left a church never to be seen again due to this doctrine. It is vile to apply this
type of behavoir to God.
You're right - choice must be a part of our relationship with god, otherwise, it is not genuine.
