Jesus is a Myth!

[POI]

The Gospels are fiction and the Jesus character is a myth. There may have been a Jesus upon whom the character is based, but I doubt it.

Loosely, there was a church already in existence when Paul became an apostle (Galatians 2). I don't think we know anything about it, because that church was effectively destroyed by the sack of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Paul's Asian churches were effectively unmoored and they absorbed a sort of second- or third-hand tradition left over from the Jerusalem church. That tradition was allegorically retold in the Synoptics. Acts is a sort of theological textbook, allegorically describing the fusion of the Pauline churches and what little remained of the Jerusalem church through the conflict between its Peter and Paul characters and the resoliution of that conflict.

For debate: Was Jesus a real character from antiquity? If so, how do we know?

The stakes are very high for the Orthodox believer. Why? If Jesus never existed, it's completely game over. Christianity is dead before we ever get to ask if Jesus ever rose. If Jesus did exist, then we can still question his claimed actions(s) all the way up to him rising again....

**************************************

At the moment, I'm personally agnostic to this topic position. But I would sure love to see how this topic fleshes out among all the smarties who exchange within this arena

[OneJack]

[Replying to POI in post #170]

I honestly do not know if a Jesus really existed, or not? A few posts back, I provided my meter-stick as to how I evaluate if an expressed character from antiquity actually likely existed, or not.

Knowing nothing about Jesus, how would you be able to evaluate the authenticity of anything about Jesus? What is your meter stick made of?

[POI]

[Replying to OneJack in post #171]

From post 154:

I would first want to know if these two folks really existed? If they did, these above claims (from inquiry) do not seem very far-fetched to also just assume happened, without much pushback. Meaning, if these two folks from antiquity met their burden of proof for their existence, it would not take much for me to also believe or conclude that Caesar was stabbed or that Hannibal rode an elephant. Now, if a claim from Caesar was that he instead walked on water, cured the blind, rose the rotting dead, battled Satan, or any other more-so far-fetched claims, then I'd probably need ALOT more evidence.

First things first... What standard(s) do we use to determine if such stated character(s) from antiquity really existed in reality?

1) Are the claims consistent and/or trustworthy?
2) Are the given source(s) reliable, as they also express other details? Meaning, do the other claims within these documents comport with (or) can they also be corroborated using external source(s)?
3) Is the given source(s) unbiased, via both religiously (and/or) politically?
4) Do the claim(s) exclude breaking immutable (and/or) "natural" law(s)?
5) Are the claim(s) backed by any substantiated relic(s)?

The more (no's) above, the worse off the odds are... The Bible looks to then be quite low on the probable 'truth-barometer.' Sorry.

Historians verify ancient claims by cross-referencing information across multiple types of evidence, including written sources, archaeological finds, and material artifacts, then critically evaluating each source's origin, purpose, and reliability. They look for corroboration, or multiple independent sources that agree, and use contextual analysis to determine if a claim is typical or unique. They also use techniques like comparing handwriting or linguistic style to authenticate documents and check for consistency with known historical or archaeological data.

[SiNcE_1985]

This is because you do not understand satire.

Oh, so a click baited thread title, followed by an unfair and imbalanced thread summary and debate question...that is satire?

Gotcha.

The topic is here to question the mere existence of a Jesus.

Then the title of the thread should pose the question.

How do you go from "Jesus is a myth" (conclusion) in the title, to "Did Jesus exist?" as a question for debate...and then claim to be agnostic on the position.

I honestly do not know if a Jesus really existed, or not?

Then you should have honestly posed the question, instead of framing the thread with a "Jesus is a myth" statement of knowledge.

Ain't nothing agnostic about that.

When you make a statement like that, you are claiming to know something, which contradicts you current statement^ of "I don't know".

A few posts back, I provided my meter-stick as to how I evaluate if an expressed character from antiquity actually likely existed, or not. You offered nothing forward from my provided given meter-stick. Thus far, you've offered virtually nothing to substantiate the position of an actual Jesus existing in history. I'm still waiting for this. As it stands, it seems if I were to compare 'Jesus' to other expressed characters from antiquity, I'm not so certain a Jesus stacks up, when compared to some of them?.?.?

Ok, cool. That is your opinion.

You have space and opportunity to make your case...go ahead.

What happened is, you got caught slipping, just like Diff did a few days ago.

This happens time and time again, where unbelievers portray themselves to be agnostically modest in their initial approach, "I honestly don't know if X is true", but once an in depth discussion is made with them, it is clear that they are far left on the issue and their middle ground position was just a mirage all along.

Most of you folks are simply atheists in agnostics clothes.

That aside, as I said prior...be careful what you say to me, because all claims of knowledge will be pressed for evidence...no longer will you guys be able to continue making these claims, without proper evidence backing the claim.

You guys demand it of us, so we shall demand it from you.
.....

That said, I need evidence presented to me that Jesus was/is a myth, as the TITLE of the thread suggests.

And then we can take it from there.

[POI]

Oh, so a click baited thread title, followed by an unfair and imbalanced thread summary and debate question...that is satire?

Gotcha.

Just having fun. You would have checked out this thread regardless. The thread is pretty straight forward. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Then you should have honestly posed the question, instead of framing the thread with a "Jesus is a myth" statement of knowledge.

Ain't nothing agnostic about that.

My position, regarding whether or not Jesus really existed, is agnostic. You are spending countless responses not posing a case for why you believe a Jesus character actually existed. Likely because you know your supposed 'evidence', which I haven't even seen yet, isn't very convincing.

Ok, cool. That is your opinion. You have space and opportunity to make your case...go ahead.

I did. You followed up with another big fat handwave. It's becoming old hat.

That aside, as I said prior...be careful what you say to me, because all claims of knowledge will be pressed for evidence...no longer will you guys be able to continue making these claims, without proper evidence backing the claim.

All this empty huffing and puffing is growing rather laborious. Do you have anything to offer, or not?

[SiNcE_1985]

Just having fun. You would have checked out this thread regardless.

Yeah, but the difference is; if the thread was properly rendered, I wouldn't have spent time exposing what needs to be exposed.

The thread is pretty straight forward. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Yeah, we both agree it's straight forward..but not for the same reasons.

My position, regarding whether or not Jesus really existed, is agnostic.

The title of the thread is not from an agnostic perspective.

You're gonna play ball fair.

Does what we say have meaning, or are we just saying stuff?

You are spending countless responses not posing a case for why you believe a Jesus character actually existed.

I need to know how/why Jesus is a myth, according to the thread title...when the consensus among scholars is that the man existed.

I know you're used to making these countless threads about Christianity, and hoping Christians bite on it so you can engage them with with the typical skeptic rhetoric.

That's cool, because we can handle that, too.

But as for now, I'm demanding that claims of knowledge is presented with evidence/argumentation.

If you ain't rocking wit it, then fine.

Just another L under your belt (one of many)..and another W for me (one of many).

So, however you wanna play it.

Likely because you know your supposed 'evidence', which I haven't even seen yet, isn't very convincing.

Sure, go with that falsity lol.

I did. You followed up with another big fat handwave. It's becoming old hat.

Ohhh, I get it.

When you guys demand apologists to back up our claims; it is the greatest thing in skepticism.

But when we demand you guys do the same; we get accused of hand waving and dodging.

I told y'all, we're gonna play ball fair.

All this empty huffing and puffing is growing rather laborious. Do you have anything to offer, or not?

It ain't empty.

As you can see, Diff ain't fairing too well here.

The Holy Spirit is active in here.

[POI]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #175]

It's obvious you've got nutt'n to offer in this exchange. You are just be-popp'n and skit-skat'n around, floundering and doing absolutely nothing to progress this convo. forward in any real capacity. You asked me a question, for which I answered thoroughly in post 154. Since then, you are just grasping at straws to try and score very cheap points on a topic in which has been completely clarified to you time and time again.

[Difflugia]

As you can see, Diff ain't fairing too well here.

What do you think I'm not faring well against? Your only argument so far has been that other people disagree with me. I cast a pearl before you and told you why Paul's and the Revelator's Jesuses are imaginary, but you haven't responded.

I'm waiting for the slapping.

[Clownboat]

Or..

You can simply tell me how Paul's theology differs (contradicts) from Jesus.

Here is a start:

Rom 13:12 Paul says: the night is far gone, the day is at hand.
Luke 21:8 Jesus Says: Take heed that you are not led astray, for many will come in my name saying, the time is at hand! Do not go after them.
It's almost like Jesus was warning us about Paul.

Rom 14:9 Paul says: For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Luke 20:38 Jesus says: Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.
Lord of the dead if you ask Paul, not Lord of the dead if you ask Jesus.

Rom 13:9 Paul says: The commandments, you shall not commit adultrery, you shall not kill, you shall not steal, you shall not covet, and any other commandments, are summed up in this sentence, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Matt 22:37-39 Jesus says: And he said to him, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38] This is the great and first commandment. [39] And a second is like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Paul highlights loving your neighbor. Jesus highlights loving the Lord your God.

Rom 9:15-16 +18 Paul says: For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. [18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
Matt 5:7 Jesus says: Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Paul claims that God will have mercy on whom he has mercy. Jesus shares with us that the merciful will obtain mercy.

Eph 1:7 Paul says: In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.
Rom 4:25 Paul says: who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Matt 6:14-15 Jesus says: For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you, [15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Paul says you need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to be redeemed (compensate for the faults). Jesus claims that if you forgive others, God will forgive you too.

Rom 3:24 + 28 Paul says: they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,… [28] For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Rom 5:9 Paul says: Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Matt 12:37 Jesus says: for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
More of Paul making this about the sacrifice if Jesus. Jesus on the other hand claims that we will be justified by our words.

Rom 6:23 Paul says: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal live in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Matt 19:29 Jesus says: And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Paul once again makes this about the death of Jesus. Jesus on the other hand alludes to a very different way to receive eternal life and does not mention human sacrifice.

2 Cor 8:21 Paul says: for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord's sight but also in the sight of men.
Luke 16:15 Jesus says: But he said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts, for what is exaled among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Paul, be honorable in the sight of men.
Jesus, what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Rom 2:12 Paul says: All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
John 12:48 Jesus says: He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge, the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.
Paul says you will be judged by the law. Jesus says you will be judged by the words he has spoken.

1 Cor 4:15 Paul says: For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Matt 23:9 Jesus says: And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
Paul says to call him father, Jesus says to call no man on earth your father.

Rom 10:4 Paul says: For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.
Matt 5:17 Jesus says: Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Paul said that Christ is the end of the law. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law.

1 Cor 12:28 Paul says: And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third, teachers.
Eph 4:11 Paul says: And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
1st Tim 2:7 Paul says: For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
Matt 23:8 Jesus says: But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.
John 10:16 Jesus says: And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold, I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one pastor (shepherd).
It's like Paul is justifying creating a church while Jesus tells us that we only have one teacher (God).

1 Cor 4:15 Paul says: For though you have countless leaders in Christ…
Matt 23:10 Jesus says: Neither be called leaders, for you have one leader,
More of the same? Paul justifying the creation of a church, and Jesus sticks to the idea that the kingdom of heaven is within us.

1 Cor 5:7 Paul says: For Christ, our pachal lamb, has been sacrificed.
Eph 5:2 Paul says: And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Matt9:13 Jesus says: Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice'.
Paul, again all about the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus claiming that sacrifice is not desired.

[SiNcE_1985]

Or..

You can simply tell me how Paul's theology differs (contradicts) from Jesus.

Here is a start:

Rom 13:12 Paul says: the night is far gone, the day is at hand.
Luke 21:8 Jesus Says: Take heed that you are not led astray, for many will come in my name saying, the time is at hand! Do not go after them.
It's almost like Jesus was warning us about Paul.

Rom 14:9 Paul says: For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Luke 20:38 Jesus says: Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.
Lord of the dead if you ask Paul, not Lord of the dead if you ask Jesus.

Rom 13:9 Paul says: The commandments, you shall not commit adultrery, you shall not kill, you shall not steal, you shall not covet, and any other commandments, are summed up in this sentence, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Matt 22:37-39 Jesus says: And he said to him, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38] This is the great and first commandment. [39] And a second is like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Paul highlights loving your neighbor. Jesus highlights loving the Lord your God.

Rom 9:15-16 +18 Paul says: For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. [18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
Matt 5:7 Jesus says: Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Paul claims that God will have mercy on whom he has mercy. Jesus shares with us that the merciful will obtain mercy.

Eph 1:7 Paul says: In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.
Rom 4:25 Paul says: who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Matt 6:14-15 Jesus says: For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you, [15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Paul says you need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to be redeemed (compensate for the faults). Jesus claims that if you forgive others, God will forgive you too.

Rom 3:24 + 28 Paul says: they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,… [28] For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Rom 5:9 Paul says: Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Matt 12:37 Jesus says: for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
More of Paul making this about the sacrifice if Jesus. Jesus on the other hand claims that we will be justified by our words.

Rom 6:23 Paul says: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal live in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Matt 19:29 Jesus says: And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Paul once again makes this about the death of Jesus. Jesus on the other hand alludes to a very different way to receive eternal life and does not mention human sacrifice.

2 Cor 8:21 Paul says: for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord's sight but also in the sight of men.
Luke 16:15 Jesus says: But he said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts, for what is exaled among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Paul, be honorable in the sight of men.
Jesus, what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Rom 2:12 Paul says: All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
John 12:48 Jesus says: He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge, the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.
Paul says you will be judged by the law. Jesus says you will be judged by the words he has spoken.

1 Cor 4:15 Paul says: For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Matt 23:9 Jesus says: And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
Paul says to call him father, Jesus says to call no man on earth your father.

Rom 10:4 Paul says: For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.
Matt 5:17 Jesus says: Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Paul said that Christ is the end of the law. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law.

1 Cor 12:28 Paul says: And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third, teachers.
Eph 4:11 Paul says: And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
1st Tim 2:7 Paul says: For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
Matt 23:8 Jesus says: But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.
John 10:16 Jesus says: And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold, I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one pastor (shepherd).
It's like Paul is justifying creating a church while Jesus tells us that we only have one teacher (God).

1 Cor 4:15 Paul says: For though you have countless leaders in Christ…
Matt 23:10 Jesus says: Neither be called leaders, for you have one leader,
More of the same? Paul justifying the creation of a church, and Jesus sticks to the idea that the kingdom of heaven is within us.

1 Cor 5:7 Paul says: For Christ, our pachal lamb, has been sacrificed.
Eph 5:2 Paul says: And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Matt9:13 Jesus says: Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice'.
Paul, again all about the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus claiming that sacrifice is not desired.

This strikes me as the Gish Gallop fallacy.

Google was apparently your friend, and I don't wanna bother with responding to copy & paste work.

Put some thought, effort, and insight into it and maybe we can get somewhere.

[SiNcE_1985]

As you can see, Diff ain't fairing too well here.

What do you think I'm not faring well against? Your only argument so far has been that other people disagree with me. I cast a pearl before you and told you why Paul's and the Revelator's Jesuses are imaginary, but you haven't responded.

I'm waiting for the slapping.

Nonsense. Post #167.

Please respond.