The consistent events from Jesus' burial to His ascension

[RBD]

Here is the consistent timeline in order from the burial of Jesus, to His ascension 40 days later.

Many women from Galilee follow Joseph and Nicodemus to see Jesus laid in the tomb. Magdalen and the other Mary are specifically mentioned. (John 19) (Mark 15) Afterward that evening, some of the other women go home to prepare spices and ointments for Jesus' body. (Luke 23)

The next day on the high Sabbath, the chief priests go to Pilate for a guard on the tomb. (Matthew 27)

In the night, there's another earthquake, and an angel in appearance as lighting rolls away the stone, making the soldiers become as dead. (Matthew 28) Jesus either resurrects at this time, or any time during the night beforehand. At some time in the night, the guards awaken and depart the empty tomb, to report to the chief priests.

Magdalen comes later in the dark before dawn, and finds the tomb empty. She tells Peter and the other disciple, and they come running to see the tomb empty. They enter to see and depart. (John 20)

Magdalen remains behind and sees two angels in the tomb, and then Jesus Himself alive outside the tomb. She is the first person on earth to see Him after His resurrection. While still dark, she returns again to tell the disciples of His resurrection, and they don't believe it. (John 20) (Mark 16)

Magdalen, the other Mary, Salome, and the other women from Galilee, including Joanna, arrive at the tomb in the morning light. One group arrives with their prepared spices and ointments, while Magdalen's group arrives with bought sweet spices. They find the tomb empty. (Mark 16) (Luke 24)

Magdalen, the other Mary, and Salome are met by the angel that rolled away the stone, and are told to see in the tomb where the Lord had lain. Another angel sitting therein tell them to tell the disciples to go to Galilee to see Jesus. (Matthew 28) (Mark 16) The other women including Joanna enter the tomb and see no one, and while standing outside are met by two more angels, that send them also to the disciples to go to Galilee to meet Jesus. (Luke 24)

All the women depart and en route meet Jesus, and hold His feet in worship. He also sends them all to tell the disciples to meet Him in Galilee. They all then tell the disciples these things, and they don't believe it. (Matthew 28)

Peter runs to the tomb a second time and ponders these things. (Luke 24)

Jesus next appears to Cleopas and another disciple on the road to Emmaus, and later toward evening they recognize Him at table, and He vanishes from their sight. In that hour, they go to the eleven to tell them of Jesus' resurrection. They don't believe it. Luke 24) (Mark 16) Peter has now also seen the Lord Jesus. Paul reports that Jesus also appeared to James at some time.

At evening, Jesus now first appears to the disciples with the others in the their midst, and shows He is indeed resurrected bodily from the dead, and not only a spirit, by showing His hands and side, and eats some fish. Thomas is not with them. (Luke 24) (John 20)

8 days later, He appears to the eleven with Thomas as they sat at meat, and upbraids them for their unbelief, and also challenges Thomas to insert His fingers into his hands, and his hand into Jesus' side. (Mark 16) (John 20)

Afterward on another day, Peter goes a fishin' at the sea of Galilee with 6 other disciples, including Thomas, Nathanael, the sons of thunder, and 2 other disciples. For the third time after His resurrection, Jesus meets His disciples on the Galilee shore with food on a fire. They all know Him. (John 21)

Afterward on another day, all the disciples meet Jesus at the Galilee mount, that He had appointed them, and worshipped Him. Some doubted what to do. (Matthew 28)

On the 40th day after His resurrection, He leads all the disciples and many others to Bethany on Mt Olivet. (Luke 24) (Acts 1) There He gives His great commission with promise of the Holy Ghost, and ascends to heaven to be recieved up in a cloud. The disciples remain standing and looking upward for Jesus, until two angels come to remind them to go to Jerusalem, and wait for the promise of the Father.

These are a consistent order of events from the 4 gospels and Acts 1.

Paul confirms Peter saw the Lord first before the other apostles, on the evening of the first day of His resurrection, and that above 500 saw Him during the 40 days after. He was also seen by James after the evening of the first day, either before His second appearance to them on the 8th day, or afterward before the sea of Galilee for the third time.

[JehovahsWitness]

You propose that Mary M visited the graveside for the first time alone during the darkness of night,

Noting the recorded fact, is not a proposal, but only noting a recorded fact.

But it is not a fact since "first" and "alone" are your injections. It also introduces the problematic element of inventing an extra trip not indicated by the narratives. The simpler reading (lectio simplicior) is of a single initial visit reported from various perspectives.

~5:00–5:30 AM Pre-dawn → John: “while it was still dark”
~5:30–6:00 AM Dawn twilight → Mark/Luke: “very early, at dawn”
~5:45–6:10 AM Sunrise → Matthew: “after the Sabbath, at dawn”

This simpler explanation has all the women set out together with Mary perhaps setting a faster pace (or her setting out from a closer starting point) arriving 10 or 20 mins before the others (see above for timeline). It also explains how she could run off to inform the Apostles without explaining her intentions to the other women. Even ignoring the grammatical argument, this simpler reading better harmonizes all four gospels without the convolution of a "midnight" visit from Magdelene.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #176]

Jesus makes two separate prophecies to Peter in two different place, and they are not the same. Therefore, there is no contradiction between, and both are fulfilled in the record as prophesied.

"And Jesus said to him, Verily I say unto you, that this day, even in this night, before the rooster crows twice, you will deny me thrice."
(Mark 14:30)

"But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what you say. And he went out into the porch; and the rooster crowed."
(Mark 14:68)

"And the second time the rooster crowed."
(Mark 14:72)

"The rooster shall not crow until you have denied me thrice.
(John 13:38)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/13/1/

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #177]

But demanding every account include every detail, in order to see if they might contradict, is bogus. And then assuming a contradiction in details not included, is even more bogus.

Not as bogus as assuming no contradiction between details which do conflict.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #170]

The record does not have the disciples there tarrying for a while. Any effort to have Mary there before they leave, is forcing a personal scenario into the event.

The record does not have Mary doubting or concealing that she had found the tomb open. Any effort to have Mary keep that information from the other women is forcing a personal scenario into the event.

The record does not record Mary sharing that information with the other women, and any effort to do so is forcing a personal scenario into the event.

The record does have women----including Mary----asking among themselves who would open the tomb for them, and any effort to pretend that the record doesn't say what it says in an attempt to keep the records from conflicting is forcing a personal scenario into the event.

Mark's version not having Mary sharing with the other women that she had already found the tomb open indicates that in Mark's version it didn't happen.

[RBD]

To explain - I mistook this thread for another one you started, so some of my remarks had to do with that thread...the one called "Proving God by proving the Bible".

No problem.

[RBD]

You propose that Mary M visited the graveside for the first time alone during the darkness of night,

Noting the recorded fact, is not a proposal, but only noting a recorded fact.

But it is not a fact since "first" and "alone" are your injections.[/quote]
First is because it's the first record of Magdalen visiting the tomb.

Alone isn't an issue. If others came with her at night before dawn, then they simply aren't mentioned.

It also introduces the problematic element of inventing an extra trip not indicated by the narratives.

The text recording it is only a problem for people not wanting to believe the written record.

The simpler reading (lectio simplicior) is of a single initial visit reported from various perspectives.

The morning visit of many mentioned women are various perspectives. Not the one record of Magdalen's visit at dark before dawn.

~5:00–5:30 AM Pre-dawn → John: “while it was still dark”
~5:30–6:00 AM Dawn twilight → Mark/Luke: “very early, at dawn”
~5:45–6:10 AM Sunrise → Matthew: “after the Sabbath, at dawn”

Your clock is not recorded Scripture.

This simpler explanation has all the women set out together with Mary perhaps setting a faster pace (or her setting out from a closer starting point) arriving 10 or 20 mins before the others (see above for timeline). It also explains how she could run off to inform the Apostles without explaining her intentions to the other women.

Right.

Sounds so much simpler with the added suppositions, that forces another recorded event into the scene, while rejecting another recorded event: The two disciples would need have arrived later, while all the women were waiting for them. And the Lord would need to have been seen by all of them in the morning light, and could not be mistaken for a gardener. Nor would she have been the first to see the Lord, because she as at the opening of the tomb, which all the women would have been at.

Even ignoring the grammatical argument, this simpler reading better harmonizes all four gospels without the convolution of a "midnight" visit from Magdelene.

By ignoring the grammatical record, this dazed and confused rewriting adds several unnecessary suppositions, that crams several separate events together, and rejects the event of when Jesus was first seen by Magdalen, mistaking Him for a gardener.

a "midnight" visit from Magdelene.

Standard strawman tactic. No one says anything about midnight, but simply in the dark before dawn. With enough time for Magdalen to arrive, fetch the disciples, who run to the grave and back, and Magdalen first seeing the Lord looking like a gardener in the dark, before she then leaves to return later at dawn with other women.

The only question remains, is that since you say you seek gospel harmony, why then mess up the simplest fact and explanation, in order to come up with something of your own invention? As a child, you always liked being first in line for anything?

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #170]

The record does not have the disciples there tarrying for a while. Any effort to have Mary there before they leave, is forcing a personal scenario into the event.

The record does not have Mary doubting or concealing that she had found the tomb open. Any effort to have Mary keep that information from the other women is forcing a personal scenario into the event.

The record does not record Mary sharing that information with the other women, and any effort to do so is forcing a personal scenario into the event.

The record does have women----including Mary----asking among themselves who would open the tomb for them,

Not any specific name of who was asking. And since it does not disprove her nighttime visit and seeing the Lord first, then it is only a matter of why she kept silent, or asked with them. Which has already been rehashed enough.

and any effort to pretend that the record doesn't say what it says in an attempt to keep the records from conflicting is forcing a personal scenario into the event.

And any effort to pretend that the record doesn't say what it says in an attempt to keep the records conflicting is forcing a personal scenario into the event.

Without something new again, we're done here. Thanks.

[William]

To explain - I mistook this thread for another one you started, so some of my remarks had to do with that thread...the one called "Proving God by proving the Bible".

That aside, you apparently haven't read the posts on THIS "The consistent events from Jesus' burial to His ascension" thread - which you created and where (while you were elsewhere) Realworldjack and I had an extensive discussion and came to our own conclusions. If you want to discuss THAT, then by all means do so.
Otherwise, what you are going on about now, is nothing I have any interest in because it doesn't take into account my earlier posts and conclusions. It is simply you quoting various tid-bits from the bible and making out that in doing so, you are the one we should be listening to. THAT is why I have nothing more to say or to add to this thread at this time.

No problem.

[JehovahsWitness]

Alone isn't an issue. If others came with her at night before dawn, then they simply aren't mentioned.

right so we have all the women ("together") arriving just before (Mary) or just after (the others) dawn*. A single initial (first) journey on the Sunday morning; all (including Mary) ignorant of the stone rolled away, all (including Mary) intending to retreat the body. Mary arriving in pre-dawn "darkness" (and promptly leaving to inform the Apostles of the empty tomb) and the others arriving at her heels (as the sun was rising)... the difference would be minutes and the "problem" of how Mary would arrive in darkness and the women in the same party arrive at dawn is solved if we shift Mary from the middle of the night to just before dawn.

This avoids all the need to explain Mary's silence to her friends and her returning in the night only to depart again a few hours later.

* The times refered to are the times of dawn in Jerusalem at the time of year of the event

~5:00–5:30 AM Pre-dawn → John: “while it was still dark”
~5:30–6:00 AM Dawn twilight → Mark/Luke: “very early, at dawn”
~5:45–6:10 AM Sunrise → Matthew: “after the Sabbath, at dawn”

.... No one says anything about midnight, but simply in the dark before dawn. ...

Exactly, before dawn (for Mary) could have been 5.25 am and dawn (for the women) 5.30 and sunrise 5.45.


QUESTION Is it dark at dawn?

• The chart illustrates that if we take "dawn/sunrise" to be a general term describing the period during which night transitions to day, the degree of light actually goes through several stages at least two of which would probably be described generally as "dark" ie there not being enough natural light to go without some kind of artificial lighting for some activities.

Source: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/d ... light.html

"darkness" for Mary does not have to be a different (night) trip, (there is a common saying "the darkest hour is before the dawn") it is entirely plausible that all the time references are speaking about a single party (the women including Mary) and harmoniously refer to the collective events which span just before dawn (darkness) to just after (sunrise)

[JehovahsWitness]

The two disciples would need have arrived later, while all the women were waiting for them. ... Nor would she have been the first to see the Lord,

Emphasis MINE

NOTE

* The reference to Mary seeing the Lord "first" is in the long conclusion of Mark only and it is generally accepted that both the long and the short conclusion of Mark were not part of the original text. It seems reasonable not to make that verse pivotal to the chronology of the inspired record

** There is no direct comment in the scriptures that "all the women were waiting" for the two disciples when they ran back to the tomb.