Did he or didn't he?

[Athetotheist]

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)

How exactly are these to be reconciled?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #86]

Then Samuel telling Saul what he doesn't want to hear suggests at least as strongly that the Wise Woman is a true medium.

Sure. Why not? God uses lying spirits, donkeys, roosters to get his message to the unbelieving and rebellious.

God wouldn't have the death penalty against witches, if there was no witchcraft. Satan is the god of this world, with his own spiritual powers of darkness. And God uses him to deceive the disobedient, and to try the obedient.

Doesn't seem that angels have free will.

viewtopic.php?t=39440

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #88]

However, in the case of Samuel's spirit, it is a true event of a witch being used to send a last prophecy from God to a king, that had refused any longer to personally receive God's words from God Himself.

Except that according to Samuel, that was exactly what Saul had sought and had gotten no answer. Even Samuel himself acknowledges that Saul had gotten no answer, confirming that he had asked.

That's what the text says, whether you like it or not.

[OneJack]

You seem oddly dismissive of the Bible----

Except for the direct utterances of God and Jesus.

All the words of Scripture are the direct utterances of God and Jesus, given to His prophets and apostles to write.

While the Spirit by Jesus Christ can certainly speak with His faithful disciples, and even things not to be written down from above. There are no direct utterances from God nor Jesus Christ, that contradict His own written words of Scripture.

Dan 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth:

If anything is not noted in the Scriptures, then it's not noted by God and Jesus Christ.

Are the epistles of Paul considered as scriptures? If you say yes, are they direct utterances of God and Jesus, as with the Psalms of David?

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #57]

Does biblical text have no rules against accusing someone of not inquiring [Chronicles] after establishing that he did inquire [1 Samuel]?

The rule comes only from God if we want the truth, and that’s ALWAYS!

If nothing comes from the Bible, what's the point of having it?

If someone thinks they are new personal revelators of the Bible God, whose revelations are not subject to the written words of the Bible, then at least in this case, you are showing more honor to the Bible, than some brand new personal revelator.

Rev 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Are saying that new revelations from God today must be subject to the written words of the bible?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #87]

Anyone can can do metaphysics if they want to. Just keep it away from solid ground and present living, and all things are as metaphysically real as any imagination wants them to be.

Don't you reach as far? Your approach to apologetics involves beginning with the assumption that the Bible is never inconsistent and then trying to argue back to that premature conclusion through the invention of mitigating details to make the inconsistencies fit together.

[RBD]

Doesn't seem that angels have free will.

viewtopic.php?t=39440

Isa 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

They do, unless they sin willfully in their hearts, like Lucifer. Then they are forever condemned without hope of redemption. Only man on earth can sin against God, and then freely continue to rebel. But only until the grave.

2Pe 2:4
For God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


At that time is the judgment of angels and men that sin against God to their own destruction:

Rev{20:12}
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works….And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I fact, it will be two men that are first cast into the lake of fire alive, before any rebellious angel.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #88]

However, in the case of Samuel's spirit, it is a true event of a witch being used to send a last prophecy from God to a king, that had refused any longer to personally receive God's words from God Himself.

Except that according to Samuel, that was exactly what Saul had sought and had gotten no answer. Even Samuel himself acknowledges that Saul had gotten no answer, confirming that he had asked.

That's what the text says, whether you like it or not.

And the text also says that God will not hear the prayers of the unrepentant wicked, nor hearken to their inquiries. Whether you like it or not...

But God being merciful and longsuffering to the end, did in fact allow Samuel's spirit to forewarn Saul of his destruction. Though God Himself no longer answered the wicked king's personal inquiry of Him. So far as God judged, no man makes any inquiry of Him, that He will not hear, as of a voice in the darkness, that is not heard. God on the throne in heaven does not suffer hypocrites and fools.

And, of course, Saul did not listen to the prophet either, nor repent. And took down to the grave his own son and many loyal Israelites. We see Saul was truly a wicked man with power, who only cared for his on personal rule, and none other.

Just like a later similarly wicked king Ahab, who insisted on hearing the truth of God by prophet, though he had no intention of hearkening and repenting:

1Ki 22:16
And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou tell me nothing but that which is true in the name of the LORD?

[RBD]

You seem oddly dismissive of the Bible----

Except for the direct utterances of God and Jesus.

All the words of Scripture are the direct utterances of God and Jesus, given to His prophets and apostles to write.

While the Spirit by Jesus Christ can certainly speak with His faithful disciples, and even things not to be written down from above. There are no direct utterances from God nor Jesus Christ, that contradict His own written words of Scripture.

Dan 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth:

If anything is not noted in the Scriptures, then it's not noted by God and Jesus Christ.

Are the epistles of Paul considered as scriptures? If you say yes, are they direct utterances of God and Jesus, as with the Psalms of David?

Have you not so much as read:

2Pe 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


Pauls' writings are confirmed to be Scripture as much as Peter's, and so, if anyone would be rid of either writer, then they must rid themselves of both.

Gal 2:8
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the nations:)


And therefore also of all the apostles, and all the prophets. Who was David, or Joel, or James, but useful writers in the hands of the Lord?

Psa 45:1
My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

If someone wants to start doubting the writings given to us in God's one Book, as not all being Scriptures of God, then they become cherry-pickers by personal will and whim.

So long as all the writings of the Bible perfectly agree with one another, as being one word and law of the Author, then why would anyone even think to cull out even one verse or word from another? Much worse whole chapters, epistles, and books:

Mat 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

This assurance from Jesus Christ must therefore also include, that His words will not pass away, but also are kept in store for all to read for ourselves.

The simple test of writings is not by manuscript wrangling, but by unity of one word, law, faith, and Book. If anyone wants to be rid of any writings of the Bible, then let them first prove beyond doubt, that they contradict each other. Otherwise, baseless doubts that God has indeed preserved all His Scriptures given on earth into one Book, is simple unbelief in the God of the Bible, and the power of Jesus Christ over all heaven and earth.

[RBD]

If someone thinks they are new personal revelators of the Bible God, whose revelations are not subject to the written words of the Bible, then at least in this case, you are showing more honor to the Bible, than some brand new personal revelator.

Rev 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Are saying that new revelations from God today must be subject to the written words of the bible?
[/quote]

Of course. If anything is revealed to anyone from the God of the Bible today, then it won't conflict with His Book already written for us. And so, it will simply be a revelation of what the Bible already teaches and prophecies. Not necessarily a new revelation, but simply an interpretation not already commonly taught.

As already quoted once, new revelations conflicting with the Bible, is already forewarned in the Bible:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


And such fraudulence has already been done many times. Most notably Smith's Book of Mormon, which he calls, 'Another new testament'. Or, newer new testament. Or, a newer testament than the old new testament.

On a smaller scale, it would include all 'new' revelations of the Lord's coming again to earth. Which have decieved many, because they don't believe the only testament of Jesus Christ about His coming again:

Mar 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


Now, if someone has a personal revelation from God about their own life and service to God? Then so long as it does not contradict His written words, then they are free to hearken and act accordingly by personal faith toward God.

2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The Scripture does not say, that there is no private interpretation of Scripture. It simply warns that without confirmation from Scriptures already written, they personal interpretations ought be kept to oneself.

If any interpretation is not disproven by Scripture, then it is a legitimate private interpretation of faith. But until there are two or most Scriptures saying so, then they ought not be taught to others as being Scripture of truth:


Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #87]

Anyone can can do metaphysics if they want to. Just keep it away from solid ground and present living, and all things are as metaphysically real as any imagination wants them to be.

Don't you reach as far? Your approach to apologetics involves beginning with the assumption that the Bible is never inconsistent

I began believing all the Bible with the proven fact, that no one has ever proven any Bible contradiction. I continue believing by that fact today.

Of course, also now with personal experience of Bible promise of Jesus Christ, by doing as the Scripture says:

Acts{3:19}
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

and then trying to argue back to that premature conclusion through the invention of mitigating details to make the inconsistencies fit together.

You mean I continue to show every effort to find fault, is unproven by the simple display to the contrary of textual harmony. Just because some people refuse to accept any other possibility than a premature conclusion of contradiction, doesn't mean the presented harmony isn't shown.

A proven contradiction must be able to dismiss any possible harmony. If someone dismisses such proven possibilities, only shows they are precommitted to finding fault, not to finding answers.

Not wanting to believe presented textual harmony, is the same as not wanting to believe the written text. Disbelief doesn't prove anything. Nor does belief alone. It's the presented harmony that dismisses claims of contradiction.