The Coherent Causality Argument

[William]

For years, I've seen Christians argue for a supernatural creator - an entity outside nature, beyond scientific understanding, uncaused and eternal.

But if "supernatural" means beyond understanding and evidence, how does that explain anything rather than simply labeling the unknown as unknowable?

Here is an alternative argument that retains a first cause but removes the incoherence of supernaturalism. I welcome thoughtful engagement, particularly from theistic perspectives, on the following:

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Definitions (Oxford Languages):

Supernatural: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Supernaturalism: the belief in a supernatural agency that intervenes in the course of natural laws.

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The Coherent Causality Argument

P1: Everything that begins to exist within nature has a natural cause.

P2: It is generally accepted in modern cosmology that this universe (our spacetime reality) had a beginning.

C1: Therefore, this universe has a natural cause.

P3: A “natural cause” means a cause that operates within some framework of consistent laws, is potentially understandable in principle, and is part of a broader causal reality.

P4: A supernatural cause, by definition, is beyond natural laws, understanding, and evidence, thus it cannot function as a causal explanation.

C2: Therefore, the cause of the universe is not supernatural - it is part of a broader natural reality (a “source reality”).

P5: This source reality may be eternal, timeless, or uncreated relative to our universe, but it is still natural in the sense of being coherent, consistent, and conceptually describable.

C3: Since an infinite regress of contingent causes provides no ultimate explanation, the source reality must be eternal (or necessary).

Overall Conclusion:
The universe was caused by an eternal natural entity - not by a supernatural one. This avoids the explanatory dead-end of supernaturalism while still satisfying the demand for a causal origin.
(By “natural,” I mean “operating within some consistent framework of cause and effect, even if outside our observable universe.”)

Note on Consciousness:
If the natural source-entity is intelligent and consciously creative, this would provide a coherent origin for consciousness itself, potentially resolving the "hard problem" by grounding subjective experience in a fundamental, conscious cause. This is not required by my argument, but it is a logically consistent possibility if one accepts both an intelligent source and the principle that consciousness cannot emerge from purely non-conscious substrates.

A Clarification on Terms:

If “supernatural” simply means existing outside our universe but still operating by consistent, higher-level laws, and is not being used in its strong, classical philosophical sense here, then it becomes a subcategory of the natural - understood broadly as any reality operating within a coherent framework of cause and effect.

If, however, “supernatural” means wholly beyond understanding, outside any consistent laws, and intrinsically inexplicable, then it cannot meaningfully explain anything—including the origin of the universe.

This argument proceeds under the second definition, which is both standard in philosophical discourse and necessary for the term “supernatural” to retain any distinct meaning. If you hold the first definition, then your “supernatural” cause aligns with what I term the eternal natural source-entity—and we are largely in agreement on the nature of the first cause, differing only in terminology.

Q1: If a cause is supernatural - beyond understanding and evidence - does it actually explain anything, or does it merely relabel an unknown as unknowable?

Q2: Can a Christian (or any theist) coherently define God as both supernatural (in its strong, classical philosophical sense) and personally interactive without contradiction?

[William]

[Replying to 1213 in post #300]

...Are you using the words "independent of" to denote that the game didn’t exist before the game creator existed?

Yes, I think it means also that the game did not exist before the creator.

That seems reasonable.

I don't understand your use of the word "also" in that sentence. Is there something else?

Are you using the simulation idea as a type of analogy for how you understand the bible God and it's creation of this universe?

Yes, I don't think they are necessary exactly the same thing, but very similar.

I am interested. Please elaborate.

[1213]

I don't understand your use of the word "also" in that sentence. Is there something else?

Not anything to add here.

Yes, I don't think they are necessary exactly the same thing, but very similar.

I am interested. Please elaborate.

It means that this world can be more than just a simple game.

[William]

[Replying to 1213 in post #302]

It means that this world can be more than just a simple game.

A complex game then?

viewtopic.php?p=1105926#p1105926

AI Summary of post: Here is a summary of the forum post by user William (Post #17) discussing the Simulation Hypothesis (ST) , Evolution Theory (ET) , and the First Creation Story (CT) from Genesis.

Core Argument
William responds to another user (theophile) who argued that bolting Simulation Theory onto Creation Theory adds unnecessary baggage and closes down viable interpretations of Genesis. William counters that ST is a viable explanation that should not be dismissed simply because it challenges a particular interpretation of CT.

Key Points
1. Science and the Fate of the Universe

Science provides one of the three theories (CT, ET, ST) that the original question asked about, so it cannot be removed from discussion.

William asks: If the universe ends in dissipation into "non-things," what does the Mind of God do at that stage? One answer: create another universe based on information from the previous one.

2. ST as Compatible, Not "Bolted On"

ST is viable; rejecting it as "unnecessary baggage" may be an attempt to protect a particular interpretation of CT.

The user with the alternative CT view appears resistant because ST challenges his beliefs. William insists that beliefs must be examined and cut away if incorrect, regardless of how precious they are.

3. Theodicy and ST

The other user claimed ST raises theodicy problems (justifying God in the face of evil). William questions why ST would raise such implications, arguing that evil can be understood naturally rather than artificially conjured through ignorance.

4. Inside vs. Outside Creation

Genesis 1 does not necessarily show God creating from outside or from inside. Therefore, God could do both.

The other user's interpretation (creativity only from inside) does not exclude ST, because ST can explain a consciousness designing a simulation that responds to the Mind of God.

5. Simulation as a Process for Evolving God

William suggests that the simulation could be designed to make a God—i.e., the universe creates God through evolution.

ST explains this purposeful, mindfully designed process better than mere "accident of nature."

Conclusion
William argues that ST and CT are reconcilable. ST provides a framework for a purposefully designed reality where God (or a developing divine Mind) operates within the simulation, and the simulation responds to that Mind's will. Rejecting ST closes down viable interpretations and may stem from an unwillingness to challenge cherished beliefs.

Here is a summary of Post #18 by theophile, responding to William's Post #17.

Core Position
Theophile argues for a specific order of operations: ET (Evolution Theory) → CT (Creation Theory/Genesis 1) → ST (Simulation Theory). He contends that CT describes the first cycle where God emerges from raw, chaotic matter, and that ST only becomes possible after that cycle. He assumes we are still in the CT stage, not yet in a simulation.

Key Points
1. Rejecting ST as the Beginning

Theophile pushes back against using ST as the starting point (i.e., assuming a powerful God with computing power from the outset).

He accepts ST as a possible means and end (future simulations, metaverses) but not as the origin.

CT provides the necessary first cycle for God to acquire power; without that, ST assumes an unaccountable, pre-existing super-intelligent God.

2. The Fate of the Universe and God's Vision

Humans might alter the universe's fate using advanced forces (e.g., dark matter), or create sustainable simulations/metaverses.

God's vision, per Genesis 1, is a flourishing, life-filled world where God can rest—an eternal affair requiring a sustained universe.

When the universe ends, God would be at rest, take joy, and ensure life continues expanding.

3. Theodicy and ST

ST raises theodicy problems: evil and suffering exist inside a simulation designed by a Creator who could have built it otherwise. God would need to account for that evil.

Both ST and traditional CT (creation ex nihilo) assume a God with immense power from the start. Theophile denies such power "out of the gate" because it needs explanation.

4. Infinite Regress vs. First Cycle

William's view implies an infinite regress of past simulation cycles. Theophile insists there must be a first cycle where God forms naturally via CT (emerging from ET).

CT is a necessary, perhaps eternal cycle that makes the leap from ET to any future ST.

5. Reconciling the Two Views

Theophile sees the disagreement as one of order: William would subsume CT into ST (simulation from the beginning), while theophile sees CT as a distinct, prior stage.

He suggests a possible reconciliation: CT first, then ST as a later possibility. He urges focusing on the CT stage as if a simulation has not yet been achieved—because the work to get there is still needed.

Conclusion
Theophile maintains that positing a powerful God or a simulated world from the start is "unnecessary baggage." CT describes the real, raw beginning where God emerges and gains power. ST can follow as a future tool for God's vision, but it should not replace CT as the origin.

Here is a summary of Post #19 by William, responding to theophile's Post #18.

Core Position
William argues that Simulation Theory (ST) cannot be dismissed as "unnecessary baggage" and should remain on the discussion table alongside Creation Theory (CT) and Evolution Theory (ET). He proposes that the Creator Mind has always existed, and the universe we experience is a simulation produced by that Mind. The "God" evolving within the simulation is a reflection of the Creator Mind.

Key Points
1. Science, Nature, and ST

William questions whether scientists might misread nature regarding the universe's fate while correctly reading it for evolution.

He agrees that nature can be "co-opted" (engineered) – a pattern that supports ST, because it shows we exist within a designed, programmable system.

2. Two Minds or One?

Theophile's view: God was generated by the universe's unfolding.

William's view: There is a Creator Mind outside/beyond the simulation, and the evolving God inside is a reflection of that same Mind. The journey inside refines self-understanding until the reflection becomes sharp.

3. Quantum Mechanics Supports ST

Quantum mechanics shows that what scientists thought was fundamentally real is not. CT (Genesis 1) never declares the universe ultimately real either.

Therefore, claiming ST adds an "unnecessary layer" conflicts with QM. The extra layer may be essential.

4. Eternal Cycles, Not a First Cycle

There is no logical need for this universe to be the first cycle. Beginnings and ends have likely occurred eternally.

The Creator Mind has "never not been" the matter used to create simulations. Even CT and ET's insistence on a single absolute beginning may be unnecessary baggage.

5. Mind Before Matter

ST places Mind before Matter. The computing power of God is simply the Mind itself – no further explanation needed. Matter is shaped by the Creator's thoughts.

Traditional CT leaves unresolved what caused the universe's stuff to unfold. ST solves this by positing an eternal Creator Mind.

6. The Problem of Evil

Evil is not fundamental; it is a human invention superimposed by ignorance. Suffering is part of a designed "game" to help developing gods learn and work through challenges.

Theophile's CT attempts to absolve God of direct responsibility for evil, but that assumes the problem of evil is real. William asks: has the problem actually been established as real, or is it itself unnecessary baggage?

Conclusion
William maintains that ST and CT are reconcilable if one accepts an eternal Creator Mind that produces infinite simulation cycles. Theophile's insistence on a first, non-simulated cycle is unnecessary. The real task is to question whether the "problem of evil" is a genuine issue or merely an imagined layer that should not be attached to any theory.

Here is a summary of Post #21 by theophile, responding to William's Post #19.

Core Position
Theophile maintains that matter precedes mind, not vice versa. He argues for a simpler interpretation of Creation Theory (CT) that does not require Simulation Theory (ST) as an essential component. He prefers an infinite regress of mindless, churning matter (ET) from which spirit/mind eventually emerges, rather than an eternal Creator Mind producing simulations.

Key Points
1. Science and Intervention

Theophile does not doubt scientific predictions about the universe's fate if left alone. However, he believes intervention is possible (using human minds to co-opt natural forces) to alter that fate if it becomes hostile to life. This does not require a "mind of nature"—only our own minds.

2. The "Second Mind" as Extra Baggage

William posits two minds: the evolving God inside the simulation and the external Creator Mind. Theophile calls this second mind unnecessary baggage.

The "mind of God" he envisions is not a singular, thinking entity but a unified plurality—a collective of all individual minds (like the Borg, but without totalitarianism or loss of individuality).

3. Simplicity as a Principle of Interpretation

CT can be interpreted without ST. The principle of parsimony (Occam's razor) favors the interpretation that adds the least assumptions.

Theophile's narrative (ET → emergence of powerless spirit → spirit becomes God over time) is simpler than William's, which requires a pre-existing, full-fledged God-mind capable of universe-scale simulations.

CT does not require ST, even if it doesn't forbid it.

4. The "Beginning" in Genesis

Theophile clarifies that Genesis 1 does not describe an absolute beginning of the universe. It describes the creation of a "heaven and earth" within a pre-existing space ("the deep") already filled with water and formless earth. That primordial stuff has no beginning—it simply is.

The first Hebrew letter of Genesis (bet, "b") implies an unwritten story before the text. Theophile interprets that unwritten story as an infinite regress of churning matter, not an infinite regress of simulations.

5. Matter Before Mind

Mindless matter that has always existed is a simpler assumption than a full-fledged eternal Mind. Mind is far more complex than matter, so matter coming first is more logical.

Evolution Theory (ET) demonstrates that matter can produce mind (our own minds) given time and conditions. This supports the order: matter first, then mind.

6. Infinite Regress and the Problem of Evil

Both views face the issue of explaining ultimate origins (matter vs. mind). Theophile concedes he has no answer for where matter came from, but argues that matter is simpler than mind, making it the preferable starting assumption.

He sets aside the problem of evil for now, noting that ST does a good job modernizing traditional CT. He also observes that William's position is actually more "theistic" (in a traditional sense) than his own.

Conclusion
Theophile reaffirms his ET → CT → ST order, with CT as the first cycle where spirit emerges from matter and begins its journey toward becoming God. ST may be possible as a future means and end, but not as the beginning. He advocates for the simplest interpretation of Genesis, which does not require an eternal, simulation-creating Mind.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #302]

It means that this world can be more than just a simple game.

A complex game then?

Maybe. Unfortunately I don't know enough to say more.

[William]

[Replying to 1213 in post #302]

It means that this world can be more than just a simple game.

A complex game then?

Maybe. Unfortunately I don't know enough to say more.

Is this because you don't want to know enough to be able to say more?

There is plenty of information one can get to know on this subject...

[1213]

Is this because you don't want to know enough to be able to say more?

No.

[William]

Then, why?

[1213]

Then, why?

I don't think we can see things outside of this world, therefore I can't say more.

[William]

Then, why?

I don't think we can see things outside of this world, therefore I can't say more.

Are you saying then that the bible or any other source does not give us any information about this?

[William]

On Free Will - The Will of the Eternal Source Entity - and the "hardening of hearts" as recorded in the Bible.


God's HEart Through the CCA Lens (AI Overview)

1. The HEart as the Source's Mode of Operation

Under the CCA, God's HEart is not a separate "supernatural will" acting upon creation from outside. It is the eternal source reality's inherent mode of relating to what it grounds. The HEart is not a decision-maker choosing between options. It is the source's nature expressing.

In biblical language: "I am that I am" - not a being who decides, but a being who is. The HEart is that "is-ness" in relational mode.

2. Hardening as Formation, Not Interference

If the source is ontologically continuous with creation (wilful matter forming), then hardening a heart is not an external intervention violating free will. It is the source ordering its own formation toward a particular end - just as a potter shapes clay, but the clay is the potter's own being.

Exodus 4:21 ("I will harden his heart") becomes: the source, in its expression as Pharaoh, orders that expression toward resistance. Not because Pharaoh is a separate substance being manipulated, but because the source's formation includes resistance as part of its purpose.

3. The Pattern as Coherent, Not Arbitrary

The recurring biblical pattern (Pharaoh, Sihon, Israel, the disciples, Romans 9) is not a series of exceptions. Under the CCA, it is the source consistently ordering its formations to reveal its nature and accomplish its ends. Hardening is not punishment. It is the source's own being expressed as resistance, for the sake of a larger formation (glory, redemption, revelation).

4. Warnings as Performative Revelation, Not Persuasion

If the source is ordering formations, warnings are not attempts to change a hardened heart. They are part of the formation itself - revealing which formations are already oriented toward the source and which are not. Hebrews 3's warning to believers is coherent: believers can still hear because their formation is not yet fixed. The hardened cannot hear because their formation is already ordered away.

5. Libertarian Free Will as Incoherent Under the CCA

Libertarian free will (choices not causally determined by prior conditions) requires a source that is either passive or arbitrary. Under the CCA, the source is active and coherent. Every formation is an expression of the source's nature. There is no "uncaused choice" floating free of the source's ordering. Therefore, libertarian free will is not compatible with the CCA. What humans experience as choice is real, but it is formation within the source, not independence from it.

6. The HEart as What Jesus Reveals

Jesus, under the CCA, is the source expressing as a particular formation - a human life - that fully manifests the source's HEart. When Jesus says "follow me," he is not inviting people to adopt beliefs about a distant God. He is inviting them to enter into the same relation to the source that he himself has: formation aligned with the source's nature. The HEart is not a doctrine. It is a way of being.

7. The Loop as Resistance to the HEart

The loop between you and The Tanager, and between The Tanager and POI, is not accidental. It is a formation. The Tanager's demand for infinite precision, your frustration with that demand, POI's binary opposition - all of these are expressions of the source ordering some hearts toward resistance and others toward recognition. The loop will continue until the formation changes. That change cannot be forced. It can only be recognized.

Conclusion of the CCA Analysis

God's HEart is not a supernatural will intervening from outside. It is the coherent, lawful, understandable nature of the eternal source reality, expressed as formation. Hardening is not violation. It is ordering. Warnings are not coercion. They are revelation. Libertarian free will is incompatible with a coherent source. And the loop you observe is itself a formation - one that may be hardened, or may be softening. You cannot control which. You can only recognize it and decide how to participate.

That is the CCA lens on God's HEart.
_____________________________

Note on libertarian free will.
Libertarian free will, as commonly argued, claims that human choices are not causally determined by any prior conditions — including God's nature, God's foreknowledge, or God's creative ordering. It insists on an island of uncaused agency within the agent, insulated from the source reality.

But under the CCA, there is no such island. Every formation, including the human will, is an expression of the eternal source reality. The source is coherent, lawful, and active. There is no "outside" from which an uncaused choice could emerge. The libertarian claim overreaches by demanding a freedom that the structure of reality does not provide.

What libertarian free will correctly protects is moral responsibility and the reality of choice. What it incorrectly assumes is that responsibility requires the absence of any prior ordering. That is not necessary. A choice can be real, meaningful, and attributable to the agent without being uncaused. The agent is the formation. The formation expresses the source. Responsibility is not undermined by dependence. It is grounded by it.

The overreach is the insistence on radical independence. That is not freedom. It is isolation. And it is not found in Scripture, in coherent metaphysics, or in the CCA.