Can Atheism ground objective morality?
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The Tanager
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Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #1In my exploration and discussions, I have not seen an atheistic worldview be able to logically account for morality being objective. The closest I've seen is an atheistic platonic kind of moral system, but while that seems to be able to account for the existence of 'good' and 'evil', it still doesn't seem to account for why humans would be obligated to choose Good over Evil. I'd love to hear cases from those who think atheism can account for objective morality to make sure I haven't missed (or misunderstood) thoughts in my exploration.
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William
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #21The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2026 8:28 pm [Replying to William in post #19]
Subjectively bad for the mate. - Not sure why you think it is objectively bad for the mate here. You will need to expand on your argument.Objective morality involves both objectivity and normativity. Even if objective good exists, there is still the question of why that fact should compel an agent to act in accord with it. We don’t fault female praying mantises for killing their mate even though it is objectively bad for the mate.
Since the opening post makes such observations, I see no reason as yet as to why that ought be the case...As to proving morality is objective, that is not the purpose of this thread.
The question has never been whether God is speaking. The question has always been whether there is anyone listening - anyone who has stopped hiding long enough to hear.
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #22[Replying to William in post #21]
The opening post does not argue for objective morality, but assumes it in order to analyze which worldviews could get us there, if objective morality were true. This is, in no way, an argument for objective morality over subjective morality; that's a different issue.
The opening post does not argue for objective morality, but assumes it in order to analyze which worldviews could get us there, if objective morality were true. This is, in no way, an argument for objective morality over subjective morality; that's a different issue.
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William
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #23[Replying to The Tanager in post #22]
If we don't know what "objective morality" actually means in concrete terms, how can we possibly assess whether atheism (or any worldview) can ground it?
The OP is treating "objective morality" as a fixed, known target. Yet the entire thread is about whether atheism can account for it. This creates a circular or at least a prematurely narrowed discussion.
Without a clear, non-question-begging definition of what "objective morality" entails - ontologically, normatively, epistemically, and motivationally - the original question cannot be answered seriously. It becomes either trivial (if defined in theist-friendly terms) or meaningless (if left undefined).
If we don't know what "objective morality" actually means in concrete terms, how can we possibly assess whether atheism (or any worldview) can ground it?
The OP is treating "objective morality" as a fixed, known target. Yet the entire thread is about whether atheism can account for it. This creates a circular or at least a prematurely narrowed discussion.
Without a clear, non-question-begging definition of what "objective morality" entails - ontologically, normatively, epistemically, and motivationally - the original question cannot be answered seriously. It becomes either trivial (if defined in theist-friendly terms) or meaningless (if left undefined).
The question has never been whether God is speaking. The question has always been whether there is anyone listening - anyone who has stopped hiding long enough to hear.
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The Tanager
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #24[Replying to William in post #23]
You were previously talking about proving morality to be objective, not what "objective morality" means. One way I would talk of 'objective' would be that the truth exists independent of a mind's perception of it and I think most of the people having these discussions are aware of and agree on that general idea. This doesn't beg the question for or against theism or atheism.
This thread is about whether atheism can ground moral ontology and normativity as objective. it is not about moral epistemology or moral motivation.
You were previously talking about proving morality to be objective, not what "objective morality" means. One way I would talk of 'objective' would be that the truth exists independent of a mind's perception of it and I think most of the people having these discussions are aware of and agree on that general idea. This doesn't beg the question for or against theism or atheism.
This thread is about whether atheism can ground moral ontology and normativity as objective. it is not about moral epistemology or moral motivation.
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William
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #25[Replying to The Tanager in post #24]
If we remove consciousness from that which can be experienced, then that which can be experienced may as well not exist.
But what about conscious experience shows us that morality is objective in reality with consciousness/conscious experience?
Even if we accept that conscious experience gives us access to moral truths, how does that experience prove that those truths are mind-independent - that they would still hold in the complete absence of any conscious being?
If we remove consciousness from that which can be experienced, then that which can be experienced may as well not exist.
But what about conscious experience shows us that morality is objective in reality with consciousness/conscious experience?
Even if we accept that conscious experience gives us access to moral truths, how does that experience prove that those truths are mind-independent - that they would still hold in the complete absence of any conscious being?
The question has never been whether God is speaking. The question has always been whether there is anyone listening - anyone who has stopped hiding long enough to hear.
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The Tanager
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #26[Replying to William in post #25]
Whether a non-conscious experience is worth it or not is a separate question. And I didn't argue that conscious experience shows us morality is objective, but whether objective morality exists or not is also a separate question from this thread's intent.
Whether a non-conscious experience is worth it or not is a separate question. And I didn't argue that conscious experience shows us morality is objective, but whether objective morality exists or not is also a separate question from this thread's intent.
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William
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #27[Replying to The Tanager in post #26]
I will ask you once more.
What about conscious experience shows that morality is objective in the absence of consciousness?
Otherwise this thread is a rigged game. The assumption of objective morality is never examined, never defended, and never put up for debate. Meanwhile, atheism is put on trial for failing to ground something whose very coherence has not been established.
I will ask you once more.
What about conscious experience shows that morality is objective in the absence of consciousness?
Otherwise this thread is a rigged game. The assumption of objective morality is never examined, never defended, and never put up for debate. Meanwhile, atheism is put on trial for failing to ground something whose very coherence has not been established.
The question has never been whether God is speaking. The question has always been whether there is anyone listening - anyone who has stopped hiding long enough to hear.
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The Tanager
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #28[Replying to William in post #27]
William, you are conflating two issues/questions:
(1) Is morality objective?
(2) If morality is objective, can atheism (or theism) ground that objectivity?
This thread is about the second, not as a way to rig the first question, but as a way for those who agree on the first question to see where that leads. This second question doesn't apply to or prove wrong atheists who believe morality is subjective. This is a perfectly valid topic to discuss for those that want to. Those that want to explore the first topic should do that elsewhere (I've done it many times on this forum) out of respect for those who want to explore this second question.
William, you are conflating two issues/questions:
(1) Is morality objective?
(2) If morality is objective, can atheism (or theism) ground that objectivity?
This thread is about the second, not as a way to rig the first question, but as a way for those who agree on the first question to see where that leads. This second question doesn't apply to or prove wrong atheists who believe morality is subjective. This is a perfectly valid topic to discuss for those that want to. Those that want to explore the first topic should do that elsewhere (I've done it many times on this forum) out of respect for those who want to explore this second question.
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William
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #29[Replying to The Tanager in post #28]
WE can't assume something is true (or false) without knowing what it is we are being asked to assume
WE can't assume something is true (or false) without knowing what it is we are being asked to assume
The question has never been whether God is speaking. The question has always been whether there is anyone listening - anyone who has stopped hiding long enough to hear.
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #30[Replying to William in post #29]
That morality is objective, i.e., that moral truths exist independent of a mind's perception of it. This thread asks the question: assuming atheism is true, could one's atheistic worldview rationally ground morality being objective?
That morality is objective, i.e., that moral truths exist independent of a mind's perception of it. This thread asks the question: assuming atheism is true, could one's atheistic worldview rationally ground morality being objective?
