And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)
How exactly are these to be reconciled?
Did he or didn't he?
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Athetotheist
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Did he or didn't he?
Post #1"The religious idea of God cannot do full duty for the metaphysical infinity."
---Alan Watts
---Alan Watts
Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #141In keeping with the record, He did not command burnt offerings when bringing them out of Egypt. He only did so later in the wilderness at Mt Sinai. And that was only because of proving themselves as a people unworthy to serve Him by voice alone:POI wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2026 6:14 pm Jeremiah 7:22 conflicts with verse(s) Leviticus 1-7, Exodus 12:43-49, and Exodus 29:38-42. Jeremiah 7:22 states God did not command burnt offerings (and/or) sacrifices, when bringing Israel out of Egypt. And yet, in the (3) expressed passages, (from Leviticus and Exodus), god clearly did.
In keeping in line with the running theme here, (did he or didn't he) command such offerings?
Exo 9:1
Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
Nothing is said of serving Him by burnt offerings, nor of the LORD commanding them to. But only to serve Him by voice, even as Moses:
Exo 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:8
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
Exo 20:18
And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
But they turned back from the LORD and Moses from hearing His voice, and go forward walking as His peculiar people.
Jer 7:21
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
And so, as you correctly say, in the day of bringing them out of Egypt, the Lord gave no such command to offer burnt sacrifices, but only to hear and obey His voice, and walk as His peculiar people on earth.
As with the Sabbath, man is not made for burnt offerings, but only for serving Him by voice, and walk with Him from the heart. The LORD did not bring them out of Egypt for another religion of burnt sacrifices and offerings.
Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #142And so, the Lord did not command any burnt offerings, until after they turned back from personally following Him by voice. And even then, they did not receive His commandment of burnt offerings, until after committing idolatry and fornication at the mount. As Paul says, the law only came by transgression:
Gal 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
And that law only remained until the reformation of Jesus Christ:
Heb 9:9
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Gal 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Now the command to serve the risen God of Israel by His own voice, and to walk with Him, is for any person that repents of sinning against Him for Jesus' sake:
1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
The first covenant would have never included burnt offerings by law, if they were worthy of hearing and obeying Him by voice. The new covenant is now only by faith in His words, and does not allow for any more religion of commanded burnt offerings:
Heb 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Gal 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
And that law only remained until the reformation of Jesus Christ:
Heb 9:9
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Gal 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Now the command to serve the risen God of Israel by His own voice, and to walk with Him, is for any person that repents of sinning against Him for Jesus' sake:
1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
The first covenant would have never included burnt offerings by law, if they were worthy of hearing and obeying Him by voice. The new covenant is now only by faith in His words, and does not allow for any more religion of commanded burnt offerings:
Heb 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
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Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #143In Jeremiah 7:22, the phrase "in the day" (Hebrew: beyom) generally refers to the general period or era of the Exodus, rather than a strict 24-hour day. It highlights that God's primary, initial emphasis was on obedience over ritualistic sacrifice.
Last edited by POI on Thu May 14, 2026 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #144Jeremiah says:POI wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2026 6:14 pmEasy. Jeremiah 7:22 conflicts with verse(s) Leviticus 1-7, Exodus 12:43-49, and Exodus 29:38-42. Jeremiah 7:22 states God did not command burnt offerings (and/or) sacrifices, when bringing Israel out of Egypt. And yet, in the (3) expressed passages, (from Leviticus and Exodus), god clearly did.
In keeping in line with the running theme here, (did he or didn't he) command such offerings?
For I did not speak to your fathers, nor command them in the day that I brought them out from the land of Egypt, concerning matters of burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Jeremiah 7:22
That does not mean He never did so, only that He did not do so in the day that I brought them out from the land of Egypt.
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