why would god create something that can resist him?

[soadnot]

Why would god create something that would resist him?
IE satan, athiests, other religions

[Metatron]

Why would god create something that would resist him?
IE satan, athiests, other religions

Maybe He just wanted to see who would seek Him out.

So you don't think that God has perfect foreknowledge?

If we have free will, which I think we do (without getting into all that), there would have to be some sort of dimension left up to us. I was thinking about this the other day..........why would it be necessary for Him to know every single detail about each of us ahead of time ?
I'm not saying He doesn't....just wondering why it is so important.? It doesn't lessen His rule in my life if He doesn't know ahead of time what clothes I will wear next week. So, I'm not sure, I guess. Like wouldn't that be the ultimate in free will? I know people say if He knows ahead of time, then it's not really 'free'.

So, maybe I'm just trying to wriggle out of another misconception....Is it necessary for Him to know ahead of time ? Since I don't believe in 'eternal damnation', it just may not be all that huge...


But I do think He's got the BIG picture ahead of time....still pondering this......

A retired farmer I knew decided to start raising rabbits to keep himself busy with light work.
He bought his first pair and basically let them loose in his barn and on his land. Because the initial feed and breading pens were in the barn the rabbits did not stray.
He knew the limits of what these rabbits would do and had nothing to do with the day to day except feed them. He had no need to know what the rabbits were doing on a minute by minute basis and he did nothing to interfere with there free will.

God has no need to interfere with us as well because He knows our limits and has no need to interfere with our free will either.
Free will only means to do thing within a natural limit.
Free will is not the ability to transcend these limits.

Regards
DL

These limits, however, can be shown to change over time...they evolve.

So you last statement is false.

I hate being told I am wrong. It makes me have to re-read which I hate.

You are saying then that natural limits can be transcended. I call that miracles.
It is to you to show which natural limit you or I can transcend. I can't fly. Can you.

Regards
DL

Actually, yes. I use an airplane.

Once upon a time man could not fly. Then through man's ingenuity, a means was devised to "transcend this natural limit". The airplane was pretty clever but I wouldn't refer to it as a miracle.

I guess it's perception, maybe, but I wouldn't call flight "transcending the natural limit." I don't see anything to suggest that flying in a plane is unnatural. Man built a metal object (a plane) and is using as much as he knows about the "natural limit" and can fly in it. If he learns more, he may be able to do more: fly higher, fly faster. Now, if man flew without a plane and just flapped his wings.....I could see that as "transcending the natural limit" because it is not in his natural design to do so. (note: my apologies to those who were at Woodstock and are sure they transcended the natural limit )

I suppose one would have to define the term "transcend natural limits". My definition would not mean unnatural or supernatural but the expansion of a natural limit to a new natural limit. Man' ability to think is a natural phenomenon. Once we had no concept of how a man could fly, now we do. A natural limitation has been transcended.

[Greatest I Am]

Sticking a man in a plane that flies does not transcend the natural limit of a man.
It is man's natural limit to sit.
It is a planes natural limit to fly.
When man can fly without the plane then he will have exceeded his natural limit.
Nothing can exceed it's natural limit.

Regards
DL

[twobitsmedia]

Sticking a man in a plane that flies does not transcend the natural limit of a man.
It is man's natural limit to sit.
It is a planes natural limit to fly.
When man can fly without the plane then he will have exceeded his natural limit.
Nothing can exceed it's natural limit.

Regards
DL

If man's natural limit is to sit, then I exceed my natural limit on daily basis just by standing. Some times I really push the limits and walk. I like your definition, though, because it means I really live on the edge just by getting out of bed.......

[Greatest I Am]

Sticking a man in a plane that flies does not transcend the natural limit of a man.
It is man's natural limit to sit.
It is a planes natural limit to fly.
When man can fly without the plane then he will have exceeded his natural limit.
Nothing can exceed it's natural limit.

Regards
DL

If man's natural limit is to sit, then I exceed my natural limit on daily basis just by standing. Some times I really push the limits and walk. I like your definition, though, because it means I really live on the edge just by getting out of bed.......

I can't believe you have so little to do you need to waste all of our time.

Regards
DL

[AClockWorkOrange]

i dont see an actual argument here.

You both seem to say the same thing, that is that a miracle is something which transcends a natural limit, and that jus t because someone does something incredible, it does NOT neccesarily mean they trandscended their limits (like airplanes flying)

Your just getting twisted up in a metaphor and misplaced hostility.

[Metatron]

Sticking a man in a plane that flies does not transcend the natural limit of a man.
It is man's natural limit to sit.
It is a planes natural limit to fly.
When man can fly without the plane then he will have exceeded his natural limit.
Nothing can exceed it's natural limit.

Regards
DL

I see no reason why the term "natural limit" has to be confined to the purely physical aspects of our bodies. Isn't our brains natural. Why are the products of our mind not natural? If we use our minds to transcend a former natural barrier (the ability to fly, travel in space, organ replacement, etc.), why does that not count as "transcending a natural limit"?

You seem to think that we would have to actually grow wings to transcend nature. That seems silly to me. But just for amusement, let's do a little speculation. What if someday we colonize a low gravity planet and bio-engineer wings to allow us to fly on this new planet. Will we have "transcended nature" now that we can fly bodily? We STILL would have accomplished this feat via the use of our minds not through magically growing wings. I see no fundamental difference between using our minds to grow wings and using our minds to build us an airplane to fly in. In both cases, we have transcended a former natural limit through the use of the products of our minds.

[Greatest I Am]

Sticking a man in a plane that flies does not transcend the natural limit of a man.
It is man's natural limit to sit.
It is a planes natural limit to fly.
When man can fly without the plane then he will have exceeded his natural limit.
Nothing can exceed it's natural limit.

Regards
DL

I see no reason why the term "natural limit" has to be confined to the purely physical aspects of our bodies. Isn't our brains natural. Why are the products of our mind not natural? If we use our minds to transcend a former natural barrier (the ability to fly, travel in space, organ replacement, etc.), why does that not count as "transcending a natural limit"?

GIA wrote
No one excluded the mind, it also has natural limits. I had a telepathic experience, you do not need to show that we have yet to find all our natural limits. They must manifest though if they are to be used.

You seem to think that we would have to actually grow wings to transcend nature. That seems silly to me. But just for amusement, let's do a little speculation. What if someday we colonize a low gravity planet and bio-engineer wings to allow us to fly on this new planet. Will we have "transcended nature" now that we can fly bodily? We STILL would have accomplished this feat via the use of our minds not through magically growing wings. I see no fundamental difference between using our minds to grow wings and using our minds to build us an airplane to fly in. In both cases, we have transcended a former natural limit through the use of the products of our minds.

No.
The tools that we invent have their own natural limits. We do not absorb them somehow when we use them.
As to growing wings, if we can do it by whatever means then where have we defied natural limits. To exceed natural limit is probably impossible because to exceed the status quo would just move the bar of knowledge of the new status quo.

Regards
DL

[Metatron]

Sticking a man in a plane that flies does not transcend the natural limit of a man.
It is man's natural limit to sit.
It is a planes natural limit to fly.
When man can fly without the plane then he will have exceeded his natural limit.
Nothing can exceed it's natural limit.

Regards
DL

I see no reason why the term "natural limit" has to be confined to the purely physical aspects of our bodies. Isn't our brains natural. Why are the products of our mind not natural? If we use our minds to transcend a former natural barrier (the ability to fly, travel in space, organ replacement, etc.), why does that not count as "transcending a natural limit"?

GIA wrote
No one excluded the mind, it also has natural limits. I had a telepathic experience, you do not need to show that we have yet to find all our natural limits. They must manifest though if they are to be used.

You seem to think that we would have to actually grow wings to transcend nature. That seems silly to me. But just for amusement, let's do a little speculation. What if someday we colonize a low gravity planet and bio-engineer wings to allow us to fly on this new planet. Will we have "transcended nature" now that we can fly bodily? We STILL would have accomplished this feat via the use of our minds not through magically growing wings. I see no fundamental difference between using our minds to grow wings and using our minds to build us an airplane to fly in. In both cases, we have transcended a former natural limit through the use of the products of our minds.

No.
The tools that we invent have their own natural limits. We do not absorb them somehow when we use them.
As to growing wings, if we can do it by whatever means then where have we defied natural limits. To exceed natural limit is probably impossible because to exceed the status quo would just move the bar of knowledge of the new status quo.

Regards
DL

Then I submit that your seeming definition of "natural limits" is itself so limited as to make it effectively worthless. What does it matter if man uses his mind to overcome a previous limitation or magically acquires the means to overcome it? In either case, the former limitation has been nullified or surpassed. We overcome "natural limits" all of the time. There will always be new "natural limits" to overcome in the future. That's what evolution, both in a biological sense and a scientific sense, is all about.

[Greatest I Am]

Sticking a man in a plane that flies does not transcend the natural limit of a man.
It is man's natural limit to sit.
It is a planes natural limit to fly.
When man can fly without the plane then he will have exceeded his natural limit.
Nothing can exceed it's natural limit.

Regards
DL

I see no reason why the term "natural limit" has to be confined to the purely physical aspects of our bodies. Isn't our brains natural. Why are the products of our mind not natural? If we use our minds to transcend a former natural barrier (the ability to fly, travel in space, organ replacement, etc.), why does that not count as "transcending a natural limit"?

GIA wrote
No one excluded the mind, it also has natural limits. I had a telepathic experience, you do not need to show that we have yet to find all our natural limits. They must manifest though if they are to be used.

You seem to think that we would have to actually grow wings to transcend nature. That seems silly to me. But just for amusement, let's do a little speculation. What if someday we colonize a low gravity planet and bio-engineer wings to allow us to fly on this new planet. Will we have "transcended nature" now that we can fly bodily? We STILL would have accomplished this feat via the use of our minds not through magically growing wings. I see no fundamental difference between using our minds to grow wings and using our minds to build us an airplane to fly in. In both cases, we have transcended a former natural limit through the use of the products of our minds.

No.
The tools that we invent have their own natural limits. We do not absorb them somehow when we use them.
As to growing wings, if we can do it by whatever means then where have we defied natural limits. To exceed natural limit is probably impossible because to exceed the status quo would just move the bar of knowledge of the new status quo.

Regards
DL

Then I submit that your seeming definition of "natural limits" is itself so limited as to make it effectively worthless. What does it matter if man uses his mind to overcome a previous limitation or magically acquires the means to overcome it? In either case, the former limitation has been nullified or surpassed. We overcome "natural limits" all of the time. There will always be new "natural limits" to overcome in the future. That's what evolution, both in a biological sense and a scientific sense, is all about.

Exactly, but wherever the new limit is, it will now answer to the name of natural limit. Today, yesterday and tomorrow. Just as what we are today.

It is not worthless, it is the new limit.

Regards
DL

[Metatron]

Sticking a man in a plane that flies does not transcend the natural limit of a man.
It is man's natural limit to sit.
It is a planes natural limit to fly.
When man can fly without the plane then he will have exceeded his natural limit.
Nothing can exceed it's natural limit.

Regards
DL

I see no reason why the term "natural limit" has to be confined to the purely physical aspects of our bodies. Isn't our brains natural. Why are the products of our mind not natural? If we use our minds to transcend a former natural barrier (the ability to fly, travel in space, organ replacement, etc.), why does that not count as "transcending a natural limit"?

GIA wrote
No one excluded the mind, it also has natural limits. I had a telepathic experience, you do not need to show that we have yet to find all our natural limits. They must manifest though if they are to be used.

You seem to think that we would have to actually grow wings to transcend nature. That seems silly to me. But just for amusement, let's do a little speculation. What if someday we colonize a low gravity planet and bio-engineer wings to allow us to fly on this new planet. Will we have "transcended nature" now that we can fly bodily? We STILL would have accomplished this feat via the use of our minds not through magically growing wings. I see no fundamental difference between using our minds to grow wings and using our minds to build us an airplane to fly in. In both cases, we have transcended a former natural limit through the use of the products of our minds.

No.
The tools that we invent have their own natural limits. We do not absorb them somehow when we use them.
As to growing wings, if we can do it by whatever means then where have we defied natural limits. To exceed natural limit is probably impossible because to exceed the status quo would just move the bar of knowledge of the new status quo.

Regards
DL

Then I submit that your seeming definition of "natural limits" is itself so limited as to make it effectively worthless. What does it matter if man uses his mind to overcome a previous limitation or magically acquires the means to overcome it? In either case, the former limitation has been nullified or surpassed. We overcome "natural limits" all of the time. There will always be new "natural limits" to overcome in the future. That's what evolution, both in a biological sense and a scientific sense, is all about.

Exactly, but wherever the new limit is, it will now answer to the name of natural limit. Today, yesterday and tomorrow. Just as what we are today.

It is not worthless, it is the new limit.

Regards
DL

I didn't claim that there would be no natural limits. I believe way back in this thread Bernie made the point that these natural limits are an evolving thing. A natural limit can be transcended perhaps creating a new natural limit which may be transcended itself in the future. A natural limit is a goal to be surpassed.