Atheism cannot be wrong

[Ray the atheist]

Preamble:

What can I possibly mean by that?
Notice that the title is about Atheism, and not Atheists..
I will be making that quite plain below

But first….

Definitions:

Atheism:

A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is an expression of a disbelief.
When I say that I'm an atheist, I am expressing my disbelief, I'm not making a claim that the god isn't real.
It might be real, I might be mistaken, your god might be real, but as an atheist, I just don't believe it.

Theism:

A belief in at least one god.
Theism is an expression of belief. When I say that I'm a theist, I'm expressing my belief that at least one god exists. My god might not be real. I might be mistaken. But as a theist, I believe that my god is real.

_________________________

Atheism isn't a moral claim:

Atheism cannot be morally wrong, as in “evil,” and it cannot be morally right, as in “good.”

Atheism isn't a truth claim:

Atheism cannot be factually wrong, as in “false,” and it cannot be factually right, as in “true.”

It cannot be factually or morally wrong to express a belief, or a disbelief.

So, atheism cannot be logically wrong, and it cannot be morally wrong.
______________________________

I am making the STRONG distinction here between "atheism" and "atheist".

Atheists can and do have moral and factual judgments of claims.. For example, I am very willing to discuss my conclusions about Christianity and all theism in general.

Atheists and Atheism are not identical.
The first means people who do not believe in gods, and the second is the position of a non-belief in gods.

I will remind you of that at the end of my preamble.
The distinction is crucial.

______________________________

Here is an example of a short conversation to explain what that means:

Christian : Hi.
Atheist: I don't believe in your god.
Christian: Is atheism making the truth claim that "there are no gods"?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making the claim that Atheism is correct?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making a truth claim?
Atheist: No. Atheism itself makes no truth claim. “I don't believe in your god” describes my mental state, not a claim about whether your god exists.

As you can see, the only claim that an atheist needs to make is that "I don't believe in your god".

_________________________

As to morality, it's the same deal:

Christian: Hi.
Atheist: I don't follow your morality.
Christian: Are you claiming that my morality is evil?
Atheist: Atheism itself makes no moral claims. I have my own, personal opinions, though.
Christian: Does atheism claim the moral high ground?
Atheist: No.
Christian: When it comes to morality, what ARE you claiming?
Atheist: Atheism does not make a moral claim. I'm simply saying that I don't follow your morality, and I can explain why.
________________________________________

The atheist in these conversations isn't making a truth claim about the existence of your God, and it's not making a moral claim about your God, your religion, or yourself.

“I don't believe X” does not logically entail “I believe not-X.”

Example: “I don't believe extraterrestrial life exists” does not mean “I believe extraterrestrial life does not exist.”

Christians should be aware of what most modern atheists are saying because it would save us all a lot of time.

Pew provides useful evidence. In 2019, 97% of self-described atheists defined atheist as someone who does not believe in God, rather than explicitly claiming God does not exist.

This 97% can be noticed across most social media, including reddit atheists. Very few atheists insist that they know there is no God. .. It would be nice if reddit allowed for polls, we could make a quick test of what atheists actually claim.

So, if you can accept that we aren't making any truth claim or moral claim, then, atheism can't be factually or morally wrong.

Remember, that I'm not talking about my personal position on Christianity as the truth, nor am I talking about my personal position on Christianity as morally righteous.

Those would be my personal opinions, not the meaning of atheism.


The Argument:

P1: Non-belief in X does not entail a factual or moral claim about X.
P2: Atheism, understood as non-belief, is non-belief in gods.

C: Therefore, atheism cannot be factually or morally wrong.

[Bradskii]

You are assuming wrong again. Try reading instead of creating strawman next time.

I'm not sure what you thought I was assuming. There are no assumptions in the post. And there are no strawmen. I was just putting my personal views forward on what you said, as I disagreed with some of it.

If you disagree with anything I've said then let me know and I'd be more than happy to discuss it.

[Bradskii]

[Replying to Bradskii in post #161]

Have you not hear that term before? Is this your first time having a chat with atheists? It's a very common term indeed. Have a read through this and it'll help:

I've heard of peas and carrots. And peas are not carrots.

Why is it so difficult for people who claim to be atheists to simply accept standard definitions of terms? Do you seriously not recognize a difference between agnostics and atheists?

Yes, for sure. They obviously can be used independently from each other. But I was surprised that you hadn't heard the term 'agnostic atheist' before. The link that I gave explained it. And from wiki:

'...an agnostic atheist does not believe that any deity exists but does not claim to know that no deity exists, or holds that the existence or nonexistence of deities is unknown or unknowable.'

As I've said upstream, as far as I know there are no gods. So strictly speaking one could say that I am an agnostic atheist. But to be honest, it's splitting hairs as far as I'm concerned. So I'm with you on this one. Use one or the other - it keeps it simple. So Bradskii is an atheist.

[Mr E]

[Replying to Bradskii in post #172]

Wonderful. An honest actor with an honest answer, willing to take ownership. In this, you are already a rare breed among atheists, and I appreciate the acknowledgment.

As an atheist then, what is your assessment of the thread premise-- Atheism cannot be wrong? Do you agree with the OP in stating this as fact?

Atheists believe in a world without God. They prefer to say that 'they don't believe in god' but that's no distinction as the OP contends it is. They believe God is not. To not believe in something without proof is akin to believing something is not, without proof. And it's no better, or worse-- than those Christians who believe one thing or another. Agree?

One believes someone/something is there-- albeit invisible. The other insists there is nothing there, in other words- they believe there is nothing there. Yet this simple progression is something that as a group and on the whole, atheists have the greatest difficulty accepting. It's hard for them to admit, and own-- so once again, Cheers, and thank you.

[Bradskii]

Wonderful. An honest actor with an honest answer, willing to take ownership. In this, you are already a rare breed among atheists, and I appreciate the acknowledgment.

Whoo hoo! That's a great start.

As an atheist then, what is your assessment of the thread premise-- Atheism cannot be wrong? Do you agree with the OP in stating this as fact?

I think there's some nuance that might have been missed early on. If you ask me, as an atheist, if I am wrong, then my answer would be a definite no. I honestly don't think I'm wrong. But...if you ask me if atheism - which is a disbelief in gods (note the lower case 'g') could be wrong then we'd need to get into a discussion about what the definition of a god is (lower case again) and I'd probably end up bending over backwards to say that depending on the definition then there's a always a chance that a god exists in some fashion, yadda yadda yadda, so it could be wrong. But I don't think you could ever take that sentence and conclude 'Ah, so you're not sure'. It could also be that the sun won't rise tomorrow, but I'm not in any doubt that it will.

Atheists believe in a world without God. They prefer to say that 'they don't believe in god' but that's no distinction as the OP contends it is. They believe God is not. To not believe in something without proof is akin to believing something is not, without proof. And it's no better, or worse-- than those Christians who believe one thing or another. Agree?

Don't forget that it's 'gods' plural and lower case. And I see we're back to 'I don't believe X' v 'I do believe that X doesn't exist'. And yep, I've been involved in waaay too many discussions when this has been brought up. I'm not sure why it does keep coming up. I think someone said upstream that it's a way for Christians to say 'Hey, you're just like us and you've got no proof either'. Well...yeah. I give it a big 'So what?'

A belief in God and a disbelief in God...neither have no proof. One is a positive position: 'He exists' and there is generally evidence put forward to show why that person believes. Fair enough. And it convinces an awful lot of people. When I was growing up I didn't know anyone that it hadn't convinced. My position (I don't want to speak for anyone else) is a negative one. So I can't prove that God doesn't exist. I'll just listen to the evidence for His existence and make my own mind up.

One believes someone/something is there-- albeit invisible. The other insists there is nothing there, in other words- they believe there is nothing there. Yet this simple progression is something that as a group and on the whole, atheists have the greatest difficulty accepting. It's hard for them to admit, and own-- so once again, Cheers, and thank you.

Do Christians believe that there is something there? Well, yes. Obviously.
Do atheists believe there isn't? Well, yes again. Obviously.

I've never known an atheist or a Christian to disagree with those two statements. So I hope that clears up my position anyway.