Law above all laws

[4gold]

During the Nuremberg Trials, the German generals' lawyers belabored the point that their clients never broke any law at the time they were committing the atrocities. In fact, the lawyers were correct. The laws that the generals were eventually convicted of weren't even created until the London charter of August 1945.

Frustrated by the lawyers' correct point that the generals broke no laws, Justice Jackson responded, "The refuge of the defendants can only be their hope that International Law will lag so far behind the moral sense of mankind that conduct which is crime in the moral sense must be regarded as innocent in law. Civilization asks whether law is so laggard as to be utterly helpless to deal with crimes of this magnitude by criminals of this order of importance...."

It seems to me that if an atheist were logically consistent, he or she would defend the German generals, but that is not what I see in the real world. Many atheists are morally horrified by the atrocities of these generals and feel that justice was properly executed against them.

I understand how a theist could support Justice Jackson's worldview -- theists believe there is a moral law that supercedes all human laws. However, I would welcome any theist's response that may help me understand better.

How does an atheistic worldview explain this? What is this law that supercedes human laws? Should the generals have been convicted for their atrocities despite breaking no laws at the time they were committed?

[Vladd44]

No, I am trying to get you to explain your worldview to me,

OH, well why didn't you say so.

because it appears completely contradictory to me at the moment.

Only if you confuse my personal preferences with being relevant to a code of laws.

You say that you are glad the German general were killed, because they were bad people. You also say your reasons have nothing to do with the law.

Governments kill people all the time. Many deserve it, many do not. It is for that reason that I am not in favor of capital punishment.

If I had a chance to personally have been judge, jury and executioner to many of the Nuremberg defendants, there is a high probability what I would have done would not have even attempted a veneer of law to hide behind.

Having said that, how can I act with indignation when others choose to achieve the same ultimate result. To do so would be hipocritical.

But you also say that you oppose ex post facto laws, the reason the world community convicted the generals.

Again, Yes. I oppose many laws, but it won't protect you in court if you are caught. I dislike many governments, and government institutions, but trust me, they continue on chugging away at our tax dollars in spite of my disdain.

[4gold]

If I had a chance to personally have been judge, jury and executioner to many of the Nuremberg defendants, there is a high probability what I would have done would not have even attempted a veneer of law to hide behind.

During the trials, the lawyers belabored the point that no laws had been broken.

What would your response be to them as to why their clients still should die? Is your reason more important than human laws? Why or why not?

Thanks in advance for your responses. This is not so much a debate, as much as I want to know how an atheist (or an agnostic in your case) explains this worldview.

[r~]

Here's a quote by Hitler: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." He found it to be a self-evident truth.

Still, you cannot recognize the spirit behind the Words. Hitler took this position on faith, not on truth. A zealot can twist and pervert Words however he wishes. That does not make them true; no matter how strong the Belief.

I find those that cannot accept or even understand self-evident truths to be by far the most dangerous. They have the blind faith that just because they do not see, it is not true.

I can't make heads or tails of that last sentence. A skeptic is hardly a dangerous person, no matter how you slice it.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmond Burke

A skeptic of the truth of liberty is less likely to take a stand against the zealots that would deny liberty.

It is the zealots that are blind to the truth of liberty that are truly the most dangerous. Hitler is a prime example.

ItS
Peace
r~

[Beto]

Here's a quote by Hitler: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." He found it to be a self-evident truth.

Still, you cannot recognize the spirit behind the Words. Hitler took this position on faith, not on truth. A zealot can twist and pervert Words however he wishes. That does not make them true; no matter how strong the Belief.

Can't you tell you twist and pervert the definitions of many words as you see fit? And like you said, that doesn't make them true. I find any claim to know existential "truth" to be self-delusion, be it your truth or Hitler's.

[r~]

As a theist, I think all laws that are superior to humans point toward something greater than ourselves. I want to know where atheists think these laws come from.

Where do atheists think gravity and other laws that are superior to humans come from? Good question.

I would say these laws come from the same force that is existence and that anything else is conjecture.

I am
ItS
Peace
r~

[Beto]

Where do atheists think gravity and other laws that are superior to humans come from? Good question.

It is, actually. Don't know about atheists, but I find intelligent design of the universe makes sense. Yet to me, it's hardly self-evident. It took a lot of reading and reflection.

I would say these laws come from the same force that is existence and that anything else is conjecture.

You ARE conjecturing, even if you can't recognize it.

[r~]

If I had a chance to personally have been judge, jury and executioner to many of the Nuremberg defendants, there is a high probability what I would have done would not have even attempted a veneer of law to hide behind.

During the trials, the lawyers belabored the point that no laws had been broken.
What would your response be to them as to why their clients still should die? Is your reason more important than human laws? Why or why not?

The Generals forfeit their Life and Liberty; many times over. They were prosecuted under due process of Justice. Their guilt was fairly proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Justice gives authority to Law; not the other way around.

Some people know this instinctively; some must read about in Books.

ItS
Justice
r~

[r~]

I find any claim to know existential "truth" to be self-delusion, be it your truth or Hitler's.

Self-evident is not the same as existential.

... I find intelligent design of the universe makes sense. Yet to me, it's hardly self-evident. It took a lot of reading and reflection.

Talk about delusional conjecture. If only you could only read what god wrote in the heavens and earth and mankind, you would see our design to be anything but intelligent. Yet, it is not uncommon for those that deny the spirit to also idolatrize the Words.

I would say these laws come from the same force that is existence and that anything else is conjecture.

You ARE conjecturing, even if you can't recognize it.

Please show me which of my words you find as conjecture. Please let us take it one sentence at a time.

ItS
Peace
r~

[Furrowed Brow]

Justice gives authority to Law; not the other way around.

Ah...but what is "justice"?

[arayhay]

- - theists believe there is a moral law that supercedes all human laws. However, I would welcome any theist's response that may help me understand better.
How does an atheistic worldview explain this?

For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

It is my experience that it is the Theists that commit the greatest immoralities. Most theists I have wrestled exalt themselves into thinking they have the high moral authority to judge and condemn other sinners. They seem unable to grasp the immorality, idolatry, and blasphemy of that Belief.

I find that it tends to be easier for an atheist to understand self evident truths.

We hold these truths to be self evident:
All are created with the inalienable rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Whenever any form of government becomes destructive, it forfeits its just powers.

Written law is not just excuse for the denial of liberty. Denial of liberty (especially murder) is a crime against justice; no matter the written law.

ItS
Peace
r~

You mean ' endowed by their creator' don't you ???