The Prayer Challenge

[chrispalasz]

If you're a seeker of God and you know you're not good and that you can never stop doing wrong - Jesus Christ can help you! If you want to know Him and Trust Him, He is willing! He accepts the broken into His arms. His Grace is FREE and He asks NOTHING in return for it!

Pray to Him, right now. Close your eyes and humble yourself before Him. Cry out to Him:

"Lord Jesus, you are the salvation of my life. You are Creator of the Universe. Touch me with your Grace, Lord, the Grace of your Salvation. Father in Heaven, I accept the sacrifice of Jesus' death on the cross for my sins against you. Thank you so much for being patient with me and showing me your mercy. I desire to follow you and reflect your goodness and love. Touch me with your healing hand and fill me with the Holy Spirit. Thank you, God, for sending your son Jesus to the cross for us, your children. Guide me through this life and leave not one of your children behind. Let your Will be done. Father, I pray in the name of your Son Jesus Christ. Amen."

Many people who are not Christians want proof that God exists, and they want it from every Christian they talk to.

Christians cannot provide proof that God exists. God can. We can provide reasoning, but ultimately you need to seek God. All you have to do, if you truly seek God, is to pray to Him. Repent for your sins and cry out to Him. Use the prayer above, or a similar one. If you truly seek God, He is faithful and He will answer you!

Non-Christians: If you decide not to take this prayer challenge, why not? Why do you come here to discuss religion? What do you hope to gain from this discussion forum? Are you trying to convince people that God does not exist?

Christians: Do you believe that through logical reasoning or debate that you can convince a non-Christian that God exists as Jesus Christ?

[Nyril]

Non-Christians: If you decide not to take this prayer challenge, why not?

I know this is the last part, but I'll cover it first. I declined because your test is entirely without merit. I would indeed go so far as to say it is worthless in this capacity.

If you're a seeker of God and you know you're not good and that you can never stop doing wrong - Jesus Christ can help you!

Will he drive me to rehab? Will he help me out with my bills? Or will he give me an imaginary person I can talk to when I feel lonely? For some reason, it seems like the last choice is the most likely.

If you want to know Him and Trust Him, He is willing!

In what way?

He accepts the broken into His arms.

Is there a particular reason he wouldn't?

His Grace is FREE and He asks NOTHING in return for it!

Like heck. We've got time/money/energy that he requires to believe in him, as well as cures for things we weren't aware were broken (ie, sin).

Pray to Him, right now. Close your eyes and humble yourself before Him. Cry out to Him:

I don't know, why don't you close your eyes and humble yourself before the Invisible Pink Unicorn? Cry out to her. Pray to her right now.
If you think that is madness, why should I treat your challenge any differently?

Many people who are not Christians want proof that God exists, and they want it from every Christian they talk to.

You've got a blood-hungry deity that spends the first half of your holy book killing off the population of the planet at will. For the second half, it decides that it needs the ultimate blood sacrifice (Jesus) to change its mind about a rule that it put into place, and then goes on to require you believe in such or else it will torture you for all eternity.

It may just be me, but I'd like a little more then simply, "because".

Christians cannot provide proof that God exists.

Wow. I'll keep this in mind.

God can.

In what way?

We can provide reasoning, but ultimately you need to seek God. All you have to do, if you truly seek God, is to pray to Him. Repent for your sins and cry out to Him. Use the prayer above, or a similar one. If you truly seek God, He is faithful and He will answer you!

So. You need to accept the conclusion before you can see proof of it?

Non-Christians: If you decide not to take this prayer challenge, why not? Why do you come here to discuss religion? What do you hope to gain from this discussion forum? Are you trying to convince people that God does not exist?

Lets go over it.

1. It's not a test.
2. No conditions are given for success.
3. No conditions are given for failure.
4. Nothing is actually being tested, as far as I can tell.
5. No results are discernable.

[bernee51]

Pray to Him, right now. Close your eyes and humble yourself before Him. Cry out to Him:

"Lord Jesus, you are the salvation of my life. You are Creator of the Universe. Touch me with your Grace, Lord, the Grace of your Salvation. Father in Heaven, I accept the sacrifice of Jesus' death on the cross for my sins against you. Thank you so much for being patient with me and showing me your mercy. I desire to follow you and reflect your goodness and love. Touch me with your healing hand and fill me with the Holy Spirit. Thank you, God, for sending your son Jesus to the cross for us, your children. Guide me through this life and leave not one of your children behind. Let your Will be done. Father, I pray in the name of your Son Jesus Christ. Amen."

Is prosletyzing (sp?) against forum rules? If not it should be.

Non-Christians: If you decide not to take this prayer challenge, why not?

Why do you assume that your 'test' has not been taken by non believers?

Allow me to attempt to answer... if I prayed as you suggest the holy spirit would fill me and i would 'know' god'. Obviously I, and others, cannot possibly have done as you suggest.

Ah the arrogance of the True Christian (TM)

Why do you come here to discuss religion?

To show it for the bunk that it is?

What do you hope to gain from this discussion forum?

To meet like minded folk who are aware of the dangers of fundamentalism and, hopefully, show this to others.

Are you trying to convince people that God does not exist?[/qoute]
One cannot 'show' that god does not exist - the fact is self evident to those who truly enquire.

[juliod]

If you truly seek God, He is faithful and He will answer you!

Been there, done that, didn't happen.

1) When I was a kid, I was a christian, sincere, pious and innocent. I prayed and really believed it. I became an atheist in part because I came to see that I was praying only to myself.

2) Last year I went through a personal crisis, the greatest problem of my life. On another forum I posted about my problem. I said that I needed help, even supernatural help. I asked the christian on the group for help. I prayed myself. No help of any sort was forthcoming.

So you'll have to excuse me for heaping scorn on your "challenge".

The natural explanation for theists devotion to prayer is that it is a psychological crutch for them. And very useful that can be, to be sure.

But there are two facts about prayer that are incontrovertible: 1) By prayer you cannot obtain any knowledge that you don't already possess; and 2) By prayer you cannot influence events to a greater extent than expected by random chance.

DanZ

[Amphigorey]

If you're a seeker of God and you know you're not good and that you can never stop doing wrong - Jesus Christ can help you! If you want to know Him and Trust Him, He is willing! He accepts the broken into His arms. His Grace is FREE and He asks NOTHING in return for it!

I'll try this approach. There are too many contingency clauses at work here. "If I'm a seeker, and If I know I'm not good and If I'll never stop doing wrong... and I know I'm broken, and I know I need help, and I can't trust anyone else"
Seems as though I have to accept your definition of me before we can talk. How many of what sort of people is this approach going to appeal to? Since I know it's not directed at me because I don't fit that definition, why should I respond to it?

"I accept the sacrifice of Jesus' death on the cross for my sins against you. Thank you, God, for sending your son Jesus to the cross for us, your children."

Even the iconography at work here ... child sacrifice, bloody dead bodies on crosses ... to whom or what are you appealing?

Many people who are not Christians want proof that God exists, and they want it from every Christian they talk to.

I don't need your proof.

Non-Christians: If you decide not to take this prayer challenge, why not?

GreenLight, this may be hard to understand, but your's is not the only choice out there. I hate to put it this way, but there's a whole mall o'God in the world today. Simply telling me that its your way or the <b><i>Lake of Fire</i></b> is supposed to be an attractive sell? I realize you think that spiritual attainment is a Gauntlet to be run, but my local S/M Leather club offers me as much, and they're a lot more fun.

Why do you come here to discuss religion? What do you hope to gain from this discussion forum? Are you trying to convince people that God does not exist?

I find Belief to be fascinating. What's true of Religion is just as true of Politics. That two people can watch the same Presidential debate and come away with entirely different interpretations based on absolutely simple minded notions like "my guy's honest, the other guy is a liar" amazes me. I don't think anyone here is being persuaded. But I think communication is absolutely essential in a complex, multi-faith society. We at least have to acknowledge the humanity in each other, as well as understand each other's passion and sincerity.

[chrispalasz]

Thanks guys, for responding!

Response to bernee51's post:

GreenLight311 wrote:

Pray to Him, right now. Close your eyes and humble yourself before Him. Cry out to Him:

"Lord Jesus, you are the salvation of my life. You are Creator of the Universe. Touch me with your Grace, Lord, the Grace of your Salvation. Father in Heaven, I accept the sacrifice of Jesus' death on the cross for my sins against you. Thank you so much for being patient with me and showing me your mercy. I desire to follow you and reflect your goodness and love. Touch me with your healing hand and fill me with the Holy Spirit. Thank you, God, for sending your son Jesus to the cross for us, your children. Guide me through this life and leave not one of your children behind. Let your Will be done. Father, I pray in the name of your Son Jesus Christ. Amen."

Is prosletyzing (sp?) against forum rules? If not it should be.

I'm not sure how it could be considered against the rules. Almost any argument either for or against Christianity could be considered proselytizing for or against it then. Besides, it is clearly directly relevant to the thread question.

Why do you assume that your 'test' has not been taken by non believers?

Allow me to attempt to answer... if I prayed as you suggest the holy spirit would fill me and i would 'know' god'. Obviously I, and others, cannot possibly have done as you suggest.

Ah the arrogance of the True Christian (TM)

Correct. 8)

To meet like minded folk who are aware of the dangers of fundamentalism and, hopefully, show this to others.

We are not so different. I might have typed the same thing... only replacing "dangers" with treasures.

One cannot 'show' that god does not exist - the fact is self evident to those who truly enquire.

You see? Perhaps we are like-minded. I might say the same thing, only deleting the word "not" from the first part.

[chrispalasz]

Nyril: I would indeed go so far as to say it is worthless in this capacity.

Why? How so?

Nyril: Will he drive me to rehab? Will he help me out with my bills?

Yes. In fact, He will do these things for you. Jesus Christ lives today inside of every True Christian. Every righteous thing we do goes to His credit and His glory. If you join a good church, the people there would definately be willing to help you out there... but don't expect angels to fly down and drag you.

I wrote:
If you want to know Him and Trust Him, He is willing!

Nyril: In what way?

Through the divinity of the Holy Spirit. If you seek Him, He will send you the Holy Spirit as an Advocate to guide you.

Me: He accepts the broken into His arms.

Nyril: Is there a particular reason he wouldn't?

Maybe if they didn't want His help. Maybe if they choose to continue to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Maybe if they choose Hell over Heaven.

Nyril: Like heck. We've got time/money/energy that he requires to believe in him, as well as cures for things we weren't aware were broken (ie, sin).

He requires nothing. He sets people free from their sin. There is nothing wrong with a Doctor who cures things that the patient isn't even aware of.

Nyril: I don't know, why don't you close your eyes and humble yourself before the Invisible Pink Unicorn? Cry out to her. Pray to her right now.
If you think that is madness, why should I treat your challenge any differently?

Because the IPU is admittantly made up by certain people whereas I know that God is real and I (as well as many others) testify to that, and I would do so in any court of law today. Who would do that for the IPU? You should take the challenge seriously; I take the responses seriously.

Nyril: You've got a blood-hungry deity that spends the first half of your holy book killing off the population of the planet at will. For the second half, it decides that it needs the ultimate blood sacrifice (Jesus) to change its mind about a rule that it put into place, and then goes on to require you believe in such or else it will torture you for all eternity.

It may just be me, but I'd like a little more then simply, "because".

This is understandable. Nobody should be satisfied with a "because" alone. The challenge is about the recognition of the availability of this proof. It exists... and you must go to the source to get it. I have given you the means to do so: prayer.

Me: Christians cannot provide proof that God exists. God can.

Nyril: In what way?

By filling you with the Holy Spirit. He will testify about Jesus Christ.

Nyril: So. You need to accept the conclusion before you can see proof of it?

Good question. No. You just need to truly seek Him.

Nyril: Lets go over it.

1. It's not a test.
2. No conditions are given for success.
3. No conditions are given for failure.
4. Nothing is actually being tested, as far as I can tell.
5. No results are discernable.

1. Correct! I would never ask you to test God.
2. Condition for success: You will recieve the Holy Spirit of God.
3. Nothing will happen.
4. Correct!
5. Discernable results have thus been outlined for you.

[chrispalasz]

Response to Juliod's post:

Been there, done that, didn't happen.

You need to seek Jesus Christ: God with a capital "G". We all seek after our personal god or gods... all the time.

1) When I was a kid, I was a christian, sincere, pious and innocent. I prayed and really believed it. I became an atheist in part because I came to see that I was praying only to myself.

This is a common problem. We cannot be praying to anything other than Jesus Christ when we pray or obviously it won't be the same. Many people pray with a hardened heart or with insincerity or to something other than God. It's when they realize it that they correct it and come to know Him.

2) Last year I went through a personal crisis, the greatest problem of my life. On another forum I posted about my problem. I said that I needed help, even supernatural help. I asked the christian on the group for help. I prayed myself. No help of any sort was forthcoming.

Well I am very sincerely sorry to hear that. Our prayers are not always answered. They have to be according to His Will. I don't know what the nature of the situation was. Sometimes we suffer for a good reason. God always provides a way out of our sin. If the door is closed... the window is open.

But there are two facts about prayer that are incontrovertible: 1) By prayer you cannot obtain any knowledge that you don't already possess; and 2) By prayer you cannot influence events to a greater extent than expected by random chance.

How did you come about knowing these alleged facts? I have had personal experiences throughout my life that serve as proof to me of the contrary of both these points.

[chrispalasz]

Amphigorey: I'll try this approach. There are too many contingency clauses at work here. "If I'm a seeker, and If I know I'm not good and If I'll never stop doing wrong... and I know I'm broken, and I know I need help, and I can't trust anyone else" Seems as though I have to accept your definition of me before we can talk. How many of what sort of people is this approach going to appeal to? Since I know it's not directed at me because I don't fit that definition, why should I respond to it?

If the challenge doesn't appeal to you, all you have to do is simply not take it, and then describe your reason(s) for not taking it in response to the thread question. It's as simple as that.

If you are not willing to take it, don't take it. Only God knows who this will appeal to, if anyone. The challenge is directed at people that fit any or all of the criteria in the definition. If you fit none, then I assume you won't take the challenge or respond to it.

Amphigorey: Even the iconography at work here ... child sacrifice, bloody dead bodies on crosses ... to whom or what are you appealing?

I am appealing to compassionate seekers of God... you know: human beings.

Amphigorey: I don't need your proof.

I have proof... but none that I can give you... and none that is truly "mine". I serve my proof, and not the other way around.

Amphigorey: GreenLight, this may be hard to understand, but your's is not the only choice out there. I hate to put it this way, but there's a whole mall o'God in the world today. Simply telling me that its your way or the Lake of Fire is supposed to be an attractive sell? I realize you think that spiritual attainment is a Gauntlet to be run, but my local S/M Leather club offers me as much, and they're a lot more fun.

What do you mean? Where have I said that the choice I made is the only one out there? Quote me saying "it's my way or the lake of fire" in any sincere fashion. I've never said it. I will never preach the Word of God as though it were a threat... but I have always preached it as the Truth. I threaten no one by saying that Hell exists... but I inform them of the Truth that it does.

I don't think anyone here is being persuaded.

That's to your knowledge. But also...
to my knowledge, nobody here has taken the challenge.

But I think communication is absolutely essential in a complex, multi-faith society. We at least have to acknowledge the humanity in each other, as well as understand each other's passion and sincerity.

I couldn't agree with you more! I whole-heartedly agree! And I acknowledge everyone's humanity, passion, and sincerity on this thread! If it has ever seemed like I haven't... I apologize. I will try to do better in the future. For now, at least I have verbally recognized these things here.

But a persons humanity, passion, and sincerity do not speak for the Truth. Kim Jhon Ill was a human. He was passionate. He was sincere. I recognize that.

[juliod]

Our prayers are not always answered.

How do you square that with:

"If you truly seek God, He is faithful and He will answer you!"

You seem to want to have it both ways.

How did you come about knowing these alleged facts? I have had personal experiences throughout my life that serve as proof to me of the contrary of both these points.

I have seven coins and a few other objects on my computer keyboard. Can you get god to identify them for you? I will join your religion immediately if you can.

Tomorrow at noon I will flip a coin. Can you pray to god to make me flip 10 "heads" in a row? I will join your religion immediately if you can.

DanZ