How can Christianity convince Jews to see the light?

[Confused]

Historically, Jews were oppressed/persecuted/exterminated before the coming of Jesus and they continued to be oppressed/persecuted/exterminated after the death of Jesus. They continue this same pattern even today.
Now, Christianity has flourished, has become the dominant religion. Jesus, as the Christ, has brought unity to the masses. And still Jews continue to reject Him as the Messiah.

What can Christians offer Jews that would make them see the light? Make them understand, in the context that Jews would understand within their own ideology, that Jesus is the way, the only way?

[cnorman18]

Apparently christians could use some educating.

That was the point of my post.

....

I am sorry for posting such garbage, but it needs to be shown that christians HAVE hated and tormented Jews just to JUSTIFY themselves.

On and on it goes, christian hate for Jews. How could this be if christianity is the religion of love ??? Paul never wrote anything like this garbage.

....

So its plain as day that christians can not hold up a light to the world, let alone to the Jews. Why is it that in the first century, the question being asked was; can gentles be grafted in, or do they need to become Jews first ?? BECAUSE THE ACCOUNTS ARE ABOUT GOD'S DEALINGS WITH THE NATION OF ISRAEL !!!!!

Messiah never was a christian. Paul was never converted. God has not cast aside his first born son Israel.

....

So christians have tried to tell Jews that they are wrong for a long time. Not realizing CHRISTIAN ERRORS that should cause them to bight their tongue.

....

Torah is the foundation for properly interpreting the teachings of the "New Testament" -- NOT the other way around.

Every book of the "New Testament" was written by a writer with a Messianic Hebrew mindset with the assumption that it would be read and/or taught by someone with the same Messianic Hebrew mindset. Thanks to 1900 years of anti-Torah theology, this is no longer the case. The result is the false teachings about Torah and the "New Testament" that define Christianity.

No argument with any of the above, including your posting of the quotations.

To cnorman; You call yourself a conservative Jew. But I don't see how Biblical that is. Do you value Scripture ?? Do you value Moses ??

Of course. Why on Earth would you ask?

Are the Commandments important to conservative Jews ???

Yes.

The propriety of my own religious beliefs is not the subject of discussion here.

I'm grateful for the support offered for my point of view about the historical relationship between Jews and Christians in the first part of your post, but I am unsure of your point in the latter point.

Surely you do not intend to pass judgment upon or dictate what the content of my faith is or ought to be; that is the very approach which I find unacceptable from Christians. I certainly do not find it acceptable from another Jew.

Are you in fact Jewish? If so, are you Orthodox? If so, or if not, peace to you, but I feel no need to detail or justify my beliefs to anyone. I refer you to an old saying which is often quoted when disputes between the various branches or schools of Judaism arise:

"When the pogroms start, it won't matter."

This thread is not about intramural controversies or disagreements among Jews, or about the correctness or incorrectness of any variety of Jewish belief. It's about the effectiveness--or, in my opinion, the propriety--of Christian efforts to convert Jews. Let's keep it focused there.

[arayhay]

Historically, Jews were oppressed/persecuted/exterminated before the coming of Jesus and they continued to be oppressed/persecuted/exterminated after the death of Jesus. They continue this same pattern even today.
Now, Christianity has flourished, has become the dominant religion. Jesus, as the Christ, has brought unity to the masses. And still Jews continue to reject Him as the Messiah.

What can Christians offer Jews that would make them see the light? Make them understand, in the context that Jews would understand within their own ideology, that Jesus is the way, the only way?

What are you talking about ?? I said christians DON'T have the light. So how prey tell can they convince Jews to see what they don't have ??

[arayhay]

The mere fact that Christians are ASSUMING that the Jews got the Messiah all wrong is a measure of disrespect to begin with.

We can always reverse that and say, "The mere fact that Jews are ASSUMING that the Christians got the Messiah all wrong is a measure of disrespect to begin with."

Perhaps, but its worth remembering that its the Christians hijacking the Jew's Messiah not the other way around. It's the height of arrogance to plagarize another religion's holy book and then claim that they are the ones who are wrong in that book's interpretation!

No one hijacked anything. Biblical Christianity is the truth fulfillment of OT Judaism.

I think you are mistaken easyrider. Biblical faith doesn't look anything like christianity. The framework is completely Israels. christians have most likely had a transaction with God that has eternal implications. But the framework and presentation of historical christianity, the system its-self is flawed.

more from this paper.

Not Subject to the Law of God?"

Part 6. How Did the Christian View of the Torah Originate?

Most Christian's insight into the Judaism of Yeshua's day is limited to the few glimpses found in the "New Testament," taken apart from its historical context, and interpreted in a non-Hebrew fashion. This is part of the problem. If you have a skewed view of the culture of the times, you will arrive at incorrect conclusions that will contribute to and reinforce false doctrines. No level of grammatical scrutiny can make up for this. Trying to read the English text, solely "in its immediate grammatical context," isn't reliable, as the text of modern Christian bibles has been altered to suit Christian theology. (26)

An example of ignorance regarding the historical/cultural context can be found in the previously mentioned study by J. Vernon McGee. The Christian teacher comments on the word "assembly" as found in James 2:2, saying:

"The word assembly here means synagogue. Evidently the Jewish Christians were calling the place where they met a synagogue. They had erected no buildings and frequently met in private homes, but the chances are that in many places they rented a synagogue. They met on Sunday rather than on Saturday and therefore did not conflict with the meeting of the Jews." (27)

Unfortunately, Christians will read statements as this, and accept them as "fact" -- after all, it's in a Bible commentary by a famous person, so it must be right. Unfortunately, Mr. McGee's comments are full of error and contribute to the standard Christian position.

An analysis of the statement reveals the following:

"Jewish Christians" -- There was no such thing as a "Jewish Christian." That is a modern term. Usage of this term supports the false idea that these first Jewish believers had now gone from Judaism to "Christianity." The earliest reference to the term "Christian" may have been the one commonly recognized as being given to the believers at Antioch (Acts 11:26) by the local Roman ruler, as a derogatory slur. (28) The original Jewish believers in Yeshua remained Torah-observant Jews (Acts 21:20).
They "called the place they met a synagogue" for one of two reasons. They either were at a synagogue building, or they were meeting somewhere else under the authority of the synagogue. Not only was there no "Christianity" in existence at this time, in fact no "Christian" group could have organized and met, as this would not have been permitted by Rome. The Jews had such permission, as an existing group, under Roman law. (29) Aside from the legal aspect, early believers continued to go to Synagogue, including Gentile converts, as this was the only place the Scriptures were read and where they would learn Torah (Acts 15:21)
"Renting a synagogue" -- This is an example of how ludicrous ideas can be passed along as "knowledge." It would have been illegal for Jews to rent their buildings out to any new group that was not sanctioned by Rome. Jewish believers in Yeshua had full rights as Jews to continue going to normal synagogue services on the Sabbath.
"They met on Sunday ..." This has no basis in fact. Jewish believers in Yeshua continued meeting at synagogue (or the Temple) for Sabbath. Common practice would be havdallah -- meeting in homes after sundown on Saturday to continue discussions and praise from the Sabbath. This explains Paul "preaching until midnight" in Acts 20:7. The first day of the week for Jews (like Paul) began at Sundown at the end of the Sabbath -- Saturday, not "Sunday."
Again, they did not "conflict with the meeting of the Jews" because they remained Jews and were still going to Synagogue alongside their Jewish brethren who did not (yet) believe in Yeshua.
A Brief History on the Origins of the Christian Church and its Doctrines

How did we get from this Torah-based Messianic Jewish faith like this ...

And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many tens of thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law (Acts 21:20)
I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. (Acts 22:3)
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:18-19)
To a non-Jewish, anti-Torah, arrogant faith (as warned about in Romans 11) like this ...

"Christianity is superior to Judaism" ... "Paul taught that bondage to the Law ended when Christ made all men free." (Quoted from William Barclay earlier in this article)
It is readily apparent in the Scriptures that Yeshua, the apostles and the early community of believers were Torah observant Jews. How did we go from there to the position of the Christian Church today, which is decidedly anti-Torah?

The "short version" of the events that caused this shift, goes something like this:

First century Rome had its "problems" with its Jewish province in Judea-Samaria. There were a number of skirmishes and two major wars fought in the first and second centuries. With the war that ended in 70 AD, much of the Torah-based Jerusalem-centered Messianic community was killed or scattered.

Two important events occurred around this time:

James (actually named Jacob/Ya'acov) the brother of Yeshua died.
The Temple was destroyed.
This combination of events caused a greater division between the Jerusalem Jews who believed in Yeshua and those who did not. Yeshua's brother, Ya'acov, was actually very instrumental in holding the believing and non-believing Jewish communities together. (30) This fracture in the Jewish community is significant as it pushed those Jews who believed in Yeshua (and also the gentiles who were coming to faith in Yeshua), further away from the rest of Judaism.

This division gave Gentiles (coming right out of the pagan Roman culture) who had no regard for the Jewishness of their "faith" a louder voice in community affairs and interpretation of Scripture. Anti-Jewish polemic can be found as early as the teachings of Ignatius, the Bishop of Antioch at the end of the first century. Ignatius spoke out against Gentile Christians having anything to do with Jewish forms of worship and that Jews becoming Christians should stop living as Jews, saying that it was "absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end." (31)

With the war of 132 AD, Jerusalem was literally "plowed under," by the Romans and renamed Aelia Capitolina. Shrines to the Roman gods, Jupiter and Venus, were erected. What little was left of the community of Jewish believers in Yeshua was wiped out and soon replaced with a very Roman non-Jewish "church." Rome went on to wipe out most of Judea, destroying 985 towns and killing over a half million Jewish men. (32) Even more died later from starvation, disease and fire. Rome then passed harsh laws banning worship on the Sabbath, the Jewish (Biblical!) feasts, public Jewish rituals, and reading of Torah. This is part of the reason we went from Saturday to Sunday worship. Jews, including those who followed Yeshua, weren’t allowed within 150 miles of the city. The lineage of Jewish successors to Yeshua and Ya'acov ended and a string of Gentile popes soon followed.

The leadership of this new Gentile "church" was quick to embrace the Roman government's position regarding Jews and was overtly hostile to anything Jewish, including the Torah. Numerous false doctrines were established as early as the second century. Among these were the teachings that "the Law" was actually given as a punishment to the Jews, that Jerusalem had been destroyed and taken from the Jews due to their sin, and that the "Church" had replaced Israel as God's people.

Why the Protestant Reformation Failed!, Frank M. Walker. Published in Petah Tikvah Volume 15, No. 1, found at: www.yashanet.com/library/reformf.htm.
See the article Equal Weights and Measures at www.yashanet.com/library/equal.htm for more about this and other mistranslations in Christian Bibles.
Thru the Bible Commentary Series, James, J. Vernon McGee, Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, 1991, p. 56.
Even the term "Christian," as seen in this verse, may be a mistranslation. There is evidence that this was a later entry to the Bible as early manuscripts have the term "almsgiver" (rather than "Christian"). This would make it a Jewish slur as that was a Jewish term and practice. The latter would make sense as it would indicate that Gentiles "had become like Jews" in their new faith. For a Roman Gentile to become like a Jew was considered a disgrace.
The Mystery of Romans, Mark Nanos, 1996, Fortress Press, Minneapolis, pp. 64-68. Julius Caesar had respect for ancient religions and granted the Jews legal privileges as collegia, giving them the right to assemble, have common meals and property, govern and tax themselves, and enforce their own discipline. They were the only non-pagan religious group to have this right. This led to much resentment from the rest of the Roman population. This also explains such occurrences as Paul being able to persecute Jewish believers (before his conversion) as mentioned in the book of Acts, and the right of the Synagogue to later discipline Paul, as he mentions in his epistles. The latter also shows that Paul kept himself under the authority of the Synagogue. According to Roman law, he could have used his Roman citizenship to stop this discipline but, according to Jewish law, he then would have forfeited his right to speak and teach in the Synagogue on the Sabbath. Although Paul is commonly known as "the apostle to the Gentiles," even this ministry was for the benefit of Israel (Romans 11:13). See also, Romans - A Shorter Commentary, C.E.B. Cranfield, 1985, William B. Eerdmans publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI, pp. 275-276.
James the Brother of Jesus, Robert Eisenman, 1997, Penguin Books, New York, NY.
Ignatius' Letter to the Magnesians
Caesar and Christ, Will Durant, 1944, Simon and Schuster, New York, p. 548.
Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Circa 138-161 A.D.)
Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) as quoted in Scattered Among the Nations, Documents Affecting Jewish History 49 to 1975, Edited by Alexis P. Rubin, Jason Aronson Inc., London, pp. 22-23.
Jew & Gentile in the Ancient World, Louis H. Feldman, 1993, Princeton University Press, Princeton, NJ, pp. 123-176

[Flail]

until we all realize that our 'flawed versions of the truth'' are no better than any other 'flawed versions of the truth'...the hatred and judgment will contine..

lets just help each other and leave the rest to providence.

[arayhay]

Here's some more; in spite of what Paul says, Jews have never believed nor taught that they must fulfill "the whole of the Law." We don't believe that everyone is born sinful, nor that Man has a "sinful nature." We don't believe that "faith" counts for very much; faith and a dollar will buy you a bag of chips. We don't believe that you have to be Jewish, or believe in God at all, to go to Heaven. We don't think that what you believe even matters, except insofar as it affects what you do.


arayhay
A bag of chips and a Covenant.

To cnorman; You call yourself a conservative Jew. But I don't see how Biblical that is. Do you value Scripture ?? Do you value Moses ??

Of course. Why on Earth would you ask?

Are the Commandments important to conservative Jews ???

Yes.

The propriety of my own religious beliefs is not the subject of discussion here.

I'm grateful for the support offered for my point of view about the historical relationship between Jews and Christians in the first part of your post, but I am unsure of your point in the latter point.

Surely you do not intend to pass judgment upon or dictate what the content of my faith is or ought to be; that is the very approach which I find unacceptable from Christians. I certainly do not find it acceptable from another Jew.

Are you in fact Jewish? If so, are you Orthodox? If so, or if not, peace to you, but I feel no need to detail or justify my beliefs to anyone. I refer you to an old saying which is often quoted when disputes between the various branches or schools of Judaism arise:

"When the pogroms start, it won't matter."

This thread is not about intramural controversies or disagreements among Jews, or about the correctness or incorrectness of any variety of Jewish belief. It's about the effectiveness--or, in my opinion, the propriety--of Christian efforts to convert Jews. Let's keep it focused there.

[/quote]


Abraham had faith. And no, I am not Jewish. Nor christian for that matter.

Just thought you could clarify some points about conservative Judaism. But your right, not here.

Deu 28:15 "But if you will not obey the voice of the LORD your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.

The key wodis careful.

[cnorman18]

I think you are mistaken easyrider. Biblical faith doesn't look anything like christianity. The framework is completely Israels. christians have most likely had a transaction with God that has eternal implications. But the framework and presentation of historical christianity, the system its-self is flawed....

If you want to argue that Christianity is a false religion, I suggest that you start a separate thread. That is not the subject of this one.

[Easyrider]

I think you are mistaken easyrider. Biblical faith doesn't look anything like christianity. The framework is completely Israels. christians have most likely had a transaction with God that has eternal implications. But the framework and presentation of historical christianity, the system its-self is flawed.

I see the opposite. Abram was declared righteous by believing (having faith) in God (Genesis 15:6 - and that before the Law was given), and righteousness comes by faith in God (Christ) in the NT also (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3, etc.). And there are numerous other simularities.

It is readily apparent in the Scriptures that Yeshua, the apostles and the early community of believers were Torah observant Jews.

Only to a degree. If they were totally Torah-observant there wouldn't have been all the gut-wrenching animosities that we see from the Judaism crowd towards Jesus and his apostles. In addition, Jesus said unless you believe that he is the one he claims to be (he claimed to be the Jewish Messiah and God), you will indeed die in your sins. How "Torah Observant" was that?

[arayhay]

I think you are mistaken easyrider. Biblical faith doesn't look anything like christianity. The framework is completely Israels. christians have most likely had a transaction with God that has eternal implications. But the framework and presentation of historical christianity, the system its-self is flawed....

If you want to argue that Christianity is a false religion, I suggest that you start a separate thread. That is not the subject of this one.

I don't know how to start a thread. LOL

[Catharsis]

>>>What can Christians offer Jews that would make them see the light? Make them understand, in the context that Jews would understand within their own ideology, that Jesus is the way, the only way?<<<

Any such attempts would be a waste of time or energy.

[arayhay]

I think you are mistaken easyrider. Biblical faith doesn't look anything like christianity. The framework is completely Israels. christians have most likely had a transaction with God that has eternal implications. But the framework and presentation of historical christianity, the system its-self is flawed.

I see the opposite. Abram was declared righteous by believing (having faith) in God (Genesis 15:6 - and that before the Law was given), and righteousness comes by faith in God (Christ) in the NT also (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3, etc.). And there are numerous other similarities.

It is readily apparent in the Scriptures that Yeshua, the apostles and the early community of believers were Torah observant Jews.

Only to a degree. If they were totally Torah-observant there wouldn't have been all the gut-wrenching animosities that we see from the Judaism crowd towards Jesus and his apostles. In addition, Jesus said unless you believe that he is the one he claims to be (he claimed to be the Jewish Messiah and God), you will indeed die in your sins. How "Torah Observant" was that?

He is the father of the faith, that's true. But he still had a relationship with God that included Torah.

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

The animosity has /is generated by the false portrait of Jesus/Yeshua as some Torah sloppy Jew who doesn't think Torah is relevant. Like most, if not all christians, including you, why can't you see how indispensable Torah is ???

Let me ask you, if Torah is not relevant to believers today, why would Jesus not say something to that effect in the so called nt ??? Why are believers zealous for the law / Torah in Acts ??? Show me one instance in the nt where the believers do anything that is a violation of Torah and thought of as exceptable.


Torah is a LIVING document that doesn't fold up and die after messiah comes.