A religious experience may be inspired by god, or by satan, or may be an hallucination. What ways do theists claiming these experiences have of deciding which group the experience falls into?
What evidence do you have that Jesus' followers were not being fooled by the performance of a magician, instead of the actions of a god?
How do you tell the difference?
Moderator: Moderators
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Catharsis
Post #2
The concept OF PRELEST, is a key one in Orthodox ascetical teaching, is completely absent in the Protestant-Catholic world.
There are two basic forms of prelest or spiritual deception. The first and more spectacular form occurs when a person strives for a high spiritual state or spiritual visions without having been purified of passions and relying on his own judgment. To such a one the devil grants great "visions." There are many such examples in the Lives of Saints, one of the primary textbooks of Orthodox ascetical teaching. Thus St. Nicetas, Bishop of Novgorod (Jan. 31), entered on the solitary life unprepared and against the counsel of his abbot, and soon he heard a voice praying with him. Then "the Lord" spoke to him and sent an "angel" to pray in his place and to instruct him to read books instead of praying, and to teach those who came to him. This he did, always seeing the "angel" near him praying, and the people were astonished at his spiritual wisdom and the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" which he seemed to possess, including "prophecies" which were always fulfilled. The deceit was uncovered only when the fathers of the monastery found out about his aversion for the New Testament (although the Old Testament, which he had never read, he could quote by heart), and by their prayers he was brought to repentance, his "miracles" ceased, and later he attained to genuine sanctity. Again, St. Isaac of the Kiev Caves (Feb. 14) saw a great light and "Christ" appeared to him with "angels"; when Isaac, without making the sign of the Cross, bowed down before "Christ," the demons gained power over him and, after dancing wildly with him, left him all but dead. He also later attained genuine sanctity. There are many similar cases when "Christ" and "angels" appeared to ascetics and granted astonishing powers and "gifts of the Holy Spirit," which often led the deluded ascetic finally to insanity or suicide.
But there is another more common, less spectacular form of spiritual deception, which offers to its victims not great visions but just exalted "religious feelings." This occurs, as Bishop Ignatius has written, "when the heart desires and strives for the enjoyment of holy and divine feelings while it is still completely unfit for them. Everyone who does not have a contrite spirit, who recognizes any kind of merit or worth in himself, who does not hold unwaveringly the teaching of the Orthodox Church but on some tradition or other has thought out his own arbitrary judgment or has followed a non-Orthodox teaching - is in this state of deception." The Roman Catholic Church has whole spiritual manuals written by people in this state; such is Thomas a Kempis' Imitation of Christ. Bishop Ignatius says of it: "There reigns in this book and breathes from its pages the unction of the evil spirit, flattering the reader, intoxicating him... The book conducts the reader directly to communion with God, without previous purification by repentance... From it carnal people enter into rapture from a delight and intoxication attained without difficulty, without self-renunciation, without repentance, without crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal. 5:24), with flattery of their fallen state." And the result, as I.M. Kontzevitch, the great transmitter of patristic teaching, has written,11 is that "the ascetic, striving to kindle in his heart love for God while neglecting repentance, exerts himself to attain a feeling of delight, of ecstasy, and as a result he attains precisely the opposite: 'he enters into communion with satan and becomes infected with hatred for the Holy Spirit' (Bishop Ignatius)."
Even a pious person is not immune to spiritual sickness if he does not have a wise guide—either a living person or a spiritual writer. This sickness is called prelest, or spiritual delusion, imagining oneself to be near to God and to the realm of the divine and supernatural. Even zealous ascetics in monasteries are sometimes subject to this delusion, but of course, laymen who are zealous in external struggles (podvigi) undergo it much more frequently. Surpassing their acquaintances in struggles of prayer and fasting, they imagine that they are seers of divine visions, or at least of dreams inspired by grace. In every event of their lives, they see special intentional directions from God or their guardian angel. And then they start imagining that they are God's elect, and often try to foretell the future. The Holy Fathers armed themselves against nothing so fiercely as against this sickness—prelest. -- Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky
What is "Prelest"?
http://www.roca.org/OA/66-68/66n.htm
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/ ... tion.shtml
There are two basic forms of prelest or spiritual deception. The first and more spectacular form occurs when a person strives for a high spiritual state or spiritual visions without having been purified of passions and relying on his own judgment. To such a one the devil grants great "visions." There are many such examples in the Lives of Saints, one of the primary textbooks of Orthodox ascetical teaching. Thus St. Nicetas, Bishop of Novgorod (Jan. 31), entered on the solitary life unprepared and against the counsel of his abbot, and soon he heard a voice praying with him. Then "the Lord" spoke to him and sent an "angel" to pray in his place and to instruct him to read books instead of praying, and to teach those who came to him. This he did, always seeing the "angel" near him praying, and the people were astonished at his spiritual wisdom and the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" which he seemed to possess, including "prophecies" which were always fulfilled. The deceit was uncovered only when the fathers of the monastery found out about his aversion for the New Testament (although the Old Testament, which he had never read, he could quote by heart), and by their prayers he was brought to repentance, his "miracles" ceased, and later he attained to genuine sanctity. Again, St. Isaac of the Kiev Caves (Feb. 14) saw a great light and "Christ" appeared to him with "angels"; when Isaac, without making the sign of the Cross, bowed down before "Christ," the demons gained power over him and, after dancing wildly with him, left him all but dead. He also later attained genuine sanctity. There are many similar cases when "Christ" and "angels" appeared to ascetics and granted astonishing powers and "gifts of the Holy Spirit," which often led the deluded ascetic finally to insanity or suicide.
But there is another more common, less spectacular form of spiritual deception, which offers to its victims not great visions but just exalted "religious feelings." This occurs, as Bishop Ignatius has written, "when the heart desires and strives for the enjoyment of holy and divine feelings while it is still completely unfit for them. Everyone who does not have a contrite spirit, who recognizes any kind of merit or worth in himself, who does not hold unwaveringly the teaching of the Orthodox Church but on some tradition or other has thought out his own arbitrary judgment or has followed a non-Orthodox teaching - is in this state of deception." The Roman Catholic Church has whole spiritual manuals written by people in this state; such is Thomas a Kempis' Imitation of Christ. Bishop Ignatius says of it: "There reigns in this book and breathes from its pages the unction of the evil spirit, flattering the reader, intoxicating him... The book conducts the reader directly to communion with God, without previous purification by repentance... From it carnal people enter into rapture from a delight and intoxication attained without difficulty, without self-renunciation, without repentance, without crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal. 5:24), with flattery of their fallen state." And the result, as I.M. Kontzevitch, the great transmitter of patristic teaching, has written,11 is that "the ascetic, striving to kindle in his heart love for God while neglecting repentance, exerts himself to attain a feeling of delight, of ecstasy, and as a result he attains precisely the opposite: 'he enters into communion with satan and becomes infected with hatred for the Holy Spirit' (Bishop Ignatius)."
Even a pious person is not immune to spiritual sickness if he does not have a wise guide—either a living person or a spiritual writer. This sickness is called prelest, or spiritual delusion, imagining oneself to be near to God and to the realm of the divine and supernatural. Even zealous ascetics in monasteries are sometimes subject to this delusion, but of course, laymen who are zealous in external struggles (podvigi) undergo it much more frequently. Surpassing their acquaintances in struggles of prayer and fasting, they imagine that they are seers of divine visions, or at least of dreams inspired by grace. In every event of their lives, they see special intentional directions from God or their guardian angel. And then they start imagining that they are God's elect, and often try to foretell the future. The Holy Fathers armed themselves against nothing so fiercely as against this sickness—prelest. -- Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky
What is "Prelest"?
http://www.roca.org/OA/66-68/66n.htm
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/ ... tion.shtml
Post #3
Thank you for your reply. You have said that people have discovered that they were misled, but not how one can tell the difference between a real knowledge of a god, and an hallucination of same. How does one tell if their beliefs are based on these 'hallucinations'. Your 'guide' may also be hallucinating, remember. We humans are all of us susceptible to hallucinations (not a perfect word, but basically I mean seeing, hearing and feeling things that only exist in the mind of the subject).Catharsis wrote:The concept OF PRELEST...
Post #4
I'll bet. Professionals only I guess.Catharsis wrote:The concept OF PRELEST, is a key one in Orthodox ascetical teaching, is completely absent in the Protestant-Catholic world.
There are two basic forms of prelest or spiritual deception. The first and more spectacular form occurs when a person strives for a high spiritual state or spiritual visions without having been purified of passions and relying on his own judgment. To such a one the devil grants great "visions."
No wonder the Protestant-Catholic world left this one on the shelf.Catharsis wrote: But there is another more common, less spectacular form of spiritual deception, which offers to its victims not great visions but just exalted "religious feelings."
While such admissions of human frailty are commendble for their honesty, they do nothing to reasure us that *any* human being can bring to the table something in the nature of divine revalation. You present very compelling reasons to go down either the Protestant-Catholic or Atheistic routes.Catharsis wrote: Even a pious person is not immune to spiritual sickness if he does not have a wise guide—either a living person or a spiritual writer. This sickness is called prelest, or spiritual delusion, imagining oneself to be near to God and to the realm of the divine and supernatural. Even zealous ascetics in monasteries are sometimes subject to this delusion, but of course, laymen who are zealous in external struggles (podvigi) undergo it much more frequently. Surpassing their acquaintances in struggles of prayer and fasting, they imagine that they are seers of divine visions, or at least of dreams inspired by grace. In every event of their lives, they see special intentional directions from God or their guardian angel. And then they start imagining that they are God's elect, and often try to foretell the future. The Holy Fathers armed themselves against nothing so fiercely as against this sickness—prelest. -- Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky
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Catharsis
Post #5
Hi Darren and QED,
>>Thank you for your reply. You have said that people have discovered that they were misled, but not how one can tell the difference between a real knowledge of a god, and an hallucination of same. How does one tell if their beliefs are based on these 'hallucinations'. Your 'guide' may also be hallucinating, remember. We humans are all of us susceptible to hallucinations (not a perfect word, but basically I mean seeing, hearing and feeling things that only exist in the mind of the subject).<<
Beliefs in Orthodoxy are not formed and based on 'hallucinations' or 'religious experiences' -- we live by faith, not by seeing. Orthodox spirituality is highly sober, and 'heavenly visions' experienced by monks are tested if they indeed originate from God or Satan (many 'miracles' are rejected). For example, I can demonstrate and prove with daylight clarity how the Charismatic experiences (ie. Pentecostalism) are an obvious form of spiritual delusion and are demonic in origin. As an example; the following are all experiences which have been observed and documented in the Charismatic movement (Please don't laugh too hard): laughing uncontrollably, cackling, hooting, writhing on the floor, act as if drunk, be stuck to the floor with "Holy Ghost" glue, fall to the ground, crawl on the ground, roar like lions, bark like dogs, paw the ground and snort like bulls, oink, howl, moo, crow, growl and emit other animal noises, jerking and shaking of the head and body, karate chopping motions, imitating warriors, abdominal spasms, intense chest pains, vomiting in the "spirit" and "birthing" (going through a mock labor and delivery).
The widespread acceptance of these manifestations reveals an utter ignorance of the traditional Christian standards of spiritual life. In the Orthodox Church, most of these manifestations have been historically regarded as clear signs of demonic possession. In Orthodox churches even today, such behaviors are exhibited by possessed individuals during services of exorcism performed by priests.
I can give many examples (I'll post one in the next couple of days) from the lives of the saints about satanic visions, how and why they were rejected, but also divine manifestations (and how they were genuine and not hallucinations).
Experiences of the saints and the great prophets would not fall under the category of hallucinations. Individuals who experience hallucinations later come to recognize them as hallucinations. Hallucinations normally involve confusion and sharp distortions of reality and perception. Experiences of the Orthodox saints are lucid, orderly, and highly coherent. Hallucinations are furthermore accompanied by anxiety and mental disturbance. On the contrary, the extraordinary experiences of the saints brought them exquisite feelings of peace and spiritual well-being that had transformative effect on their lives.
>>Thank you for your reply. You have said that people have discovered that they were misled, but not how one can tell the difference between a real knowledge of a god, and an hallucination of same. How does one tell if their beliefs are based on these 'hallucinations'. Your 'guide' may also be hallucinating, remember. We humans are all of us susceptible to hallucinations (not a perfect word, but basically I mean seeing, hearing and feeling things that only exist in the mind of the subject).<<
Beliefs in Orthodoxy are not formed and based on 'hallucinations' or 'religious experiences' -- we live by faith, not by seeing. Orthodox spirituality is highly sober, and 'heavenly visions' experienced by monks are tested if they indeed originate from God or Satan (many 'miracles' are rejected). For example, I can demonstrate and prove with daylight clarity how the Charismatic experiences (ie. Pentecostalism) are an obvious form of spiritual delusion and are demonic in origin. As an example; the following are all experiences which have been observed and documented in the Charismatic movement (Please don't laugh too hard): laughing uncontrollably, cackling, hooting, writhing on the floor, act as if drunk, be stuck to the floor with "Holy Ghost" glue, fall to the ground, crawl on the ground, roar like lions, bark like dogs, paw the ground and snort like bulls, oink, howl, moo, crow, growl and emit other animal noises, jerking and shaking of the head and body, karate chopping motions, imitating warriors, abdominal spasms, intense chest pains, vomiting in the "spirit" and "birthing" (going through a mock labor and delivery).
The widespread acceptance of these manifestations reveals an utter ignorance of the traditional Christian standards of spiritual life. In the Orthodox Church, most of these manifestations have been historically regarded as clear signs of demonic possession. In Orthodox churches even today, such behaviors are exhibited by possessed individuals during services of exorcism performed by priests.
I can give many examples (I'll post one in the next couple of days) from the lives of the saints about satanic visions, how and why they were rejected, but also divine manifestations (and how they were genuine and not hallucinations).
Experiences of the saints and the great prophets would not fall under the category of hallucinations. Individuals who experience hallucinations later come to recognize them as hallucinations. Hallucinations normally involve confusion and sharp distortions of reality and perception. Experiences of the Orthodox saints are lucid, orderly, and highly coherent. Hallucinations are furthermore accompanied by anxiety and mental disturbance. On the contrary, the extraordinary experiences of the saints brought them exquisite feelings of peace and spiritual well-being that had transformative effect on their lives.
Post #6
Are you suggesting that only "fulfilling extraordinary experiences" are to be considered as truly religious (divine) in origin?Catharsis wrote:Hallucinations are furthermore accompanied by anxiety and mental disturbance. On the contrary, the extraordinary experiences of the saints brought them exquisite feelings of peace and spiritual well-being that had transformative effect on their lives.
Drug-induced religious experiences as well as direct and transcranial ESB (electronic brain stimulation) all trigger similar feelings. These powerful techniques have already been employed to cure depression for example -- a genuinely transformative outcome.
Wikipedia defines Phenomenology as "the reflective study of the essence of consciousness as experienced from the first-person point of view." Phenomenologists understand quite a bit about the world of "feelings" and how we get them. Illusion is a big part of that world, if it wasn't there might be something to be said for regarding a particular class of experiences as being truly divine. With so much in the way of mundane explanation available it simply isn't reasonable to attribute the extraordinary to the supernatural without considerable extra support.
Post #7
Aside from the lucid points made by QED, there is still no clear description offered as to how to tell the difference between an illusion and the real thing. I think if there was any reality at all to these experiences, that reality would be visible, and independantly verifiable (and not only by a select group of church 'elders')
