Belief is all for the believer!

[ccarandrew]

First post for me on this excellent forum. You may have gathered already that I am a non-believer!

I have been considering why people have faith in their chosen/inflicted god. The conclusion I come to is that it simply comforts them to think that someone up there is watching over them and if they behave themselves they will be rewarded.

Nothing wrong with that, but personally I prefer to get real.

The truth is we just don't know a heck of a lot about the lives we are all living. Hard though it is, I accept that and live with it.

Faith is for those who can't.

[realthinker]

First post for me on this excellent forum. You may have gathered already that I am a non-believer!

I have been considering why people have faith in their chosen/inflicted god. The conclusion I come to is that it simply comforts them to think that someone up there is watching over them and if they behave themselves they will be rewarded.

Nothing wrong with that, but personally I prefer to get real.

The truth is we just don't know a heck of a lot about the lives we are all living. Hard though it is, I accept that and live with it.

Faith is for those who can't.

While I too am a non-believer, I've got to say that I don't think it's that simple. Religion is a real phenomonon that cannot be entirely dismissed. It has significant contribution to social structure and community wellbeing. Unless you have a viable and acceptable substitute for what religion contributes you should be wary of wishing its demise.

Religion is a personal source of spiritual satisfaction, though there are others. It's a significant part of the truth held by most of the world, and as such it's something to be acknowledged when dealing with people. People sharing a common framework of truth, even if that commonailty is a shared myth, cooperate and trust one another more readily because their reasoning and their behavior is predictably more similar.

If you take away the arbitrary factors of religous belief, a framework of ideas built over centuries to withstand the assault of reality, people will be forced to evaluate one another in a far more objective and rigorous basis. That is not likely to add to the stability of our communities. Religion as a framework of belief erases the natural stratification of intelligence and perception and education. Anyone can be a worthy Christian by following the pattern. Not everyone can understand calculus or even simple grammar.

So, even if I believe religion is false, I have to acknowledge its place in society and its contribution to stability. I even support worthy religious causes, those that are not divisive or elitist or denigrating, those that do not reserve resources for those like themselves and those that do take overly much from those they claim to serve. I don't support those organizations, such as the Catholic church, that hide criminals and deny problems at the expense of children and their families and communities, and which collect billions of dollars from their parishoners to pay settlements.

Above all, I would do nothing to deny anyone their spiritual satisfaction. Spirituality is a real human need, and everyone deserves to have that need met. If their practice, whatever it is, provides that satisfaction, I don't care if they worship a turnip, so long as it's a benevolent turnip and the practice helps to make them an acceptable, contributing member of society.

[Confused]

First post for me on this excellent forum. You may have gathered already that I am a non-believer!

I have been considering why people have faith in their chosen/inflicted god. The conclusion I come to is that it simply comforts them to think that someone up there is watching over them and if they behave themselves they will be rewarded.

Nothing wrong with that, but personally I prefer to get real.

The truth is we just don't know a heck of a lot about the lives we are all living. Hard though it is, I accept that and live with it.

Faith is for those who can't.

I am moving this to the discussion forum as there is no clear topic for debate. Should you clarify one in the future, we can always return it to the debate forum. For tips on how to start a debate topic, see:

ref:Tips on starting a debate topic

[cnorman18]

First post for me on this excellent forum. You may have gathered already that I am a non-believer!

I have been considering why people have faith in their chosen/inflicted god. The conclusion I come to is that it simply comforts them to think that someone up there is watching over them and if they behave themselves they will be rewarded.

Nothing wrong with that, but personally I prefer to get real.

The truth is we just don't know a heck of a lot about the lives we are all living. Hard though it is, I accept that and live with it.

Faith is for those who can't.

I think I'll save this to my WP to save me the trouble of typing it over and over.

For, what, the 500th time? Judaism has no formal doctrine of belief in a life after death. It is not mentioned in the Torah, and very many Jews do not believe in it. Even those Jews who do so believe do not claim to have the least idea of what it would be like, and would not say it is a major aspect of the Jewish religion.

Judaism does not fit the usual simplistic definition of "religion" favored by atheists in very many ways. This is one of them.

I have no particular objection to the criticism of other faiths in these terms, though I think even then it is rather simpleminded; there is much more to Christianity, e.g., than a hope of Heaven and a fear of Hell. But as a general indictment of religion per se it is logically and factually false.

[realthinker]

I think I'll save this to my WP to save me the trouble of typing it over and over.

For, what, the 500th time? Judaism has no formal doctrine of belief in a life after death. It is not mentioned in the Torah, and very many Jews do not believe in it. Even those Jews who do so believe do not claim to have the least idea of what it would be like, and would not say it is a major aspect of the Jewish religion.

Judaism does not fit the usual simplistic definition of "religion" favored by atheists in very many ways. This is one of them.

Though it does not perhaps describe it distinctly or incorporate it heavily, Judaism does, however, include ideas regarding after death ideas, correct? I've read about reincarnation and resurrection, the eternal soul. I've read about Sheol and Gan Eden, and other after-life locations. Judaism may have no formal doctrine regarding it, but can you describe how the afterlife is referred to or presented in Jewish practice?

[Goat]

I think I'll save this to my WP to save me the trouble of typing it over and over.

For, what, the 500th time? Judaism has no formal doctrine of belief in a life after death. It is not mentioned in the Torah, and very many Jews do not believe in it. Even those Jews who do so believe do not claim to have the least idea of what it would be like, and would not say it is a major aspect of the Jewish religion.

Judaism does not fit the usual simplistic definition of "religion" favored by atheists in very many ways. This is one of them.

Though it does not perhaps describe it distinctly or incorporate it heavily, Judaism does, however, include ideas regarding after death ideas, correct? I've read about reincarnation and resurrection, the eternal soul. I've read about Sheol and Gan Eden, and other after-life locations. Judaism may have no formal doctrine regarding it, but can you describe how the afterlife is referred to or presented in Jewish practice?

Although there is an afterlife (very vague) in many varities of Judaism, that is not universal. Many Jews do not believe in an afterlife. It is not part of the dogma.

[OnceConvinced]

First post for me on this excellent forum. You may have gathered already that I am a non-believer!

I have been considering why people have faith in their chosen/inflicted god. The conclusion I come to is that it simply comforts them to think that someone up there is watching over them and if they behave themselves they will be rewarded.

Nothing wrong with that, but personally I prefer to get real.

The truth is we just don't know a heck of a lot about the lives we are all living. Hard though it is, I accept that and live with it.

Faith is for those who can't.

I think you do raise valid points. "Goddidit" is a convenient answer to many of man's big questions. Religion can also give a sense of security, enabling you to believe that "God has all things under control", even if it is a false sense of security. It's also a great comfort to believe that death is nothing and that you are going to have enternal life in Heaven.

As long as you don't "get real", you can continue to be satisfied.

[cnorman18]

I think I'll save this to my WP to save me the trouble of typing it over and over.

For, what, the 500th time? Judaism has no formal doctrine of belief in a life after death. It is not mentioned in the Torah, and very many Jews do not believe in it. Even those Jews who do so believe do not claim to have the least idea of what it would be like, and would not say it is a major aspect of the Jewish religion.

Judaism does not fit the usual simplistic definition of "religion" favored by atheists in very many ways. This is one of them.

Though it does not perhaps describe it distinctly or incorporate it heavily, Judaism does, however, include ideas regarding after death ideas, correct? I've read about reincarnation and resurrection, the eternal soul. I've read about Sheol and Gan Eden, and other after-life locations. Judaism may have no formal doctrine regarding it, but can you describe how the afterlife is referred to or presented in Jewish practice?

Although there is an afterlife (very vague) in many varities of Judaism, that is not universal. Many Jews do not believe in an afterlife. It is not part of the dogma.

Strange; I thought I posted a response here yesterday, but apparently I just looked at the preview and logged out without submitting it.

Anyway; the fact that there are so many possibilities mentioned, in both the liturgy and the literature, testifies to the fact that there is no doctrine of the afterlife in Judaism, only speculation.

A dear friend of mine, whom I lived with and cared for during the last 2-1/2 years of his life, died at the end of January at the age of 98. I was there alongside his family throughout the whole process, in his last days and hours, at the moment of his death, during the preparations and the funeral and at the family gatherings afterward. I never heard anyone so much as mention an afterlife, not once, not even during the service (with the exception of one non-Jewish hospice worker who was discreetly asked not to mention it again). Morry himself never brought it up in all the time I knew him, though he spoke of his impending death often.

That is, from what I have seen, the Jewish way. Speculation is for another time and place, and not to be done in the presence of death itself. In the actual event, we remain silent.

Death is very real and very final to us. What comes after, if anything, we do not know. Our dead are dead, not "with God."