Fundamental Freedoms First

[kingdomwithin]

The Jude scripture is a well documented allusion to Enoch. The Assumption of Moses was pseudepigraphical despite it's popularity. The Origin of Evil continues to evolve constrained within anthropomorphic context, while the personalities transcend this material realm. - kingdomwithin

1955 Urantia Book | 60124 | 53:1.2 Lucifer was a magnificent being, a brilliant personality; he stood next to the Most High Fathers of the constellations in the direct line of universe authority. Notwithstanding Lucifer's transgression, subordinate intelligences refrained from showing him disrespect and disdain prior to Michael's bestowal on Urantia. Even the archangel of Michael, at the time of Moses' resurrection, "did not bring against him an accusing judgment but simply said, 'the Judge rebuke you.'" Judgment in such matters belongs to the Ancients of Days, the rulers of the superuniverse.

1901 ASV | Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

1st Century B.C. | 1 Enoch 1:9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones, To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh, Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

1st Century A.D. | Assumption of Moses 10 And then His Kingdom shall appear throughout all His creation, And then Satan shall be no more, And sorrow shall depart with him. Then the hands of the angel shall be filled Who has been appointed chief, And he shall forthwith avenge them of their enemies. For the Heavenly One will arise from His royal throne, And He will go forth from His holy habitation With indignation and wrath on account of His sons. And the earth shall tremble: to its confines shall it be shaken: And the high mountains shall be made low And the hills shall be shaken and fall. And the horns of the sun shall be broken and he shall be turned into darkness; And the moon shall not give her light, and be turned wholly into blood. And the circle of the stars shall be disturbed. And the sea shall retire into the abyss, And the fountains of waters shall fail, And the rivers shall dry up. For the Most High will arise, the Eternal God alone, And He will appear to punish the Gentiles, And He will destroy all their idols. Then you, O Israel, shall be happy, And you shall mount upon the necks and wings of the eagle, And they shall be ended. And God will exalt you, And He will cause you to approach to the heaven of the stars, In the place of their habitation. And you will look from on high and see your enemies in Ge(henna) And you shall recognize them and rejoice, And you shall give thanks and confess thy Creator. And do you; Joshua (the son of) Nun, keep these words and this book; For from my death [assumption] until His advent there shall be 250 times [= year-weeks = 1750 years]. And this is the course of the times which they shall pursue till they are consummated. And I shall go to sleep with my fathers. Wherefore, Joshua you (son of) Nun, (be strong and) be of good courage; (for) God has chosen (you) to be minister in the same covenant.

Can anyone else agree that Scriptures from the religion of Your choice primarily address the Origin of Evil?

Or this primeval Origin prerequisite must be anthropomorphic to assimilate Humankind's origin?

Science concedes that roughly 40,000 years ago Humankind's evolution accelerated. However, if this is not accepted widely enough, then let's simply address the absence of any cultural equivalent.

I'm not advocating for any specific explanation, if you don't believe in the Unqualified, then substitute Alien intervention, or the Anomalous explanation of your choice.

I'm suggesting the Fall of Man (Genesis), or the Mark of the Beast (Revelation), is the same genetic Survival inheritance. Somehow we've been complimented Spiritually within to overcome ancestral Fight or Flight mechansims or baser Animal tendencies.

What is the scientific explantation for one evolutionary Super species or race and the failure of any others to remotely Close that Gap?

My religion is Freedom from Belief, and my Church is as separate as possible from State, so I would like to join that associated usergroup or request it's creation, please support your AU local whatever your beliefs.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest - Denis Diderot (1713-1784)

[kingdomwithin]

Apparently, you don't know your back from your front, since I was merely quoting you, sir. You're far too busy demanding I argue with your Labor intensive Logic, you've lost track of your own position, friend.

Nope. That is the heart of argument, not an inference. .. .. So you have me back to front sir.

Your inference is that there is no need to invoke interference to explain the data.

My inference is that there is no need to invoke interference to explain the data.

Hi Furrowed Brow,

I mentioned previously Fundamentalist preachers from the Church of Materialism were prone to Minimize the Gap. But I forgot to remind everyone how dangerous Proof demands may be. Maybe we better keep it all Separate from State until Materialist concede Reality is indifferent to Evidence.

• Soft Slope, don't you mean Off the Chart, or is your intellectual Dishonesty intentional?
• Science is Accountable, but you Deliberately offer no Data explanations or You can't?
• unparalleled Gulfs require No explanation, so don't Examine them too carefully, despite how Obvious they are?

I definitely don't want Rule of Law reliant on holy Book interpretations of Unqualified exhortations. But dogmatic Scientific materialism seems to be leading us astray with genetically Modified plants and cloned Animal parts for profit. Freedom from Belief is essential for Balanced objectivity, apparently. (support AU locally)

Just because we can't find any Proof that you have a Soul doesn't prove you Don't have one. So I think you should be more careful Assuring people they Don't have one either, since you don't have any Proof whatsoever. But I'll indulge your Circular logic, does a potentially Eternal soul require an Unqualified source?

This Example is only as Hard as the Science is Current, accelerated Human evolution encompassed Neanderthal obsolescence roughly 40,000 years ago, and it's independent of all Your dates.

Not really, and apologies to McCulloch too, I am quite aware of my Difficulty communicating Generalized beliefs, designed not to endorse any Specific religion. Generally evil Assimilates humanity's arrival, and that requires a pre-existent Evil origin. But I'm questioning the Motivation for Evil of Transcendent personalities not Materially leashed to hunger, pain or reproductive drives. What's the Reward for Evil divorced of Material pleasure?

Okay. Humans do bad, and the more intelligent they are the more imaginative the means they find for doing bad. Interesting avenue to pursue.but whats it got to do with intervention? (An intervention which you have not established the need for).

The topic is Right and Wrong. I'm questioning the Motivation for Evil beyond animal Survival techniques of Material realms. Apparently, unparalleled Human development, personally or culturally, may reveal clues.

Maybe this Secular archetype for Origin of Evil, from which all future Evil spreads, will resonate with Site Supporters better:

As usual, the face of Emmanuel Goldstein, the Enemy of the People, had flashed on to the screen. There were hisses here and there among the audience. The little sandy-haired woman gave a squeak of mingled fear and disgust. Goldstein was the renegade and backslider who once, long ago (how long ago, nobody quite remembered), had been one of the leading figures of the Party, almost on a level with Big Brother himself, and then had engaged in counter-revolutionary activities, had been condemned to death, and had mysteriously escaped and disappeared. The programmes of the Two Minutes Hate varied from day to day, but there was none in which Goldstein was not the principal figure. He was the primal traitor, the earliest defiler of the Party's purity. All subsequent crimes against the Party, all treacheries, acts of sabotage, heresies, deviations, sprang directly out of his teaching. Somewhere or other he was still alive and hatching his conspiracies: perhaps somewhere beyond the sea, under the protection of his foreign paymasters, perhaps even -- so it was occasionally rumoured -- in some hiding-place in Oceania itself.

[kingdomwithin]

I like you Furrowed Brow,

I really do.

And I will be the first to concede the utility of your fancy logic. Any debate's resolution is likely a function of the argument's clarity and the position's conciseness. So, in the future, you can presume I will reflect Your influence in formulating My reasoning.

However, in this case, you may never back me into one of your Prefabricated boxes. You continually expect me to defend Interference arguments. But I don't need to, since Unparalleled evolution is Obvious to everyone. If you can't suffer Interference, all you have to do is Explain the Data otherwise. Until then Fundamentalist preachers from the Church of Materialism will need more than Random luck or, 'no principle's been transgressed', to explain it's failure to reoccur.

I came here on a wager instead of developing requested criticisms. I get a lot of message Board forum and social Spam and Spy network recommendations. But I was so impressed with the General civility, here, I registered. So I recognize my Civility's lacking, and My danger of brotherly Fellowship hypocrisy.

My tone reflects political Freedom preoccupation for the restoration Human rights and the Rule of Law. It's been years since I've Engaged spirituality, and I just offered some Old theories, for the sake of discussion. Back then I would dissect and review every Clause in thoroughly Nested quotes, until it no longer seemed conducive to discourse. Although I understand you're trying to reorganize Diffuse arguments. (support AU locally)

So you will need to offer something more than 'no principle's been transgressed' or Random luck to explain Unparalleled evolution. Because I don't have any obligation to demonstrate what is Plainly observed. Unless you would rather move on to Motivation of Evil for transcendent Personalities, that you Don't believe in, divorced from Material pleasure. Nevertheless, transcendent Evil remains prerequiste to Human assimilation, unless you concede it's animal Survival inheritance.

[Furrowed Brow]

And I will be the first to concede the utility of your fancy logic.

Valid logical thinking is the simplest way to think. It aint fancy.

Any debate's resolution is likely a function of the argument's clarity and the position's conciseness. So, in the future, you can presume I will reflect your influence in formulating my reasoning.

However, in this case, you may never back me into one of your prefabricated boxes. You continually expect me to defend Interference arguments. But I don't need to, since Unparalleled evolution is Obvious to everyone.

Strangely kingdomwithin it is obvious to me too. But there is nothing "special" to be explained, and no "special" explanation is required. Thats the point.

If you can't suffer Interference, all you have to do is Explain the Data otherwise.

Okay give me some data. Ive given you some data regarding fire use, tool use, burials, use of symbols, jewelry. Each a stepping stone to modern human culture. Your posts so far are bereft of any data.

Until then Fundamentalist preachers from the Church of Materialism will need more than Random luck or, 'no principle's been transgressed', to explain it's failure to reoccur.

Okay. This sentence betrays your intellectual prejudices and an unwillingness to engage with what counts a valid inference, plus a misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. There is no direction to evolution. That one species strikes out in a certain direction and achieves technology and culture gives us no reason to expect that any other to follow suit. There is no failure because there is no reason for us to be looking for alternative fire ligting, tool using, symbol writing cultures.

So you will need to offer something more than 'no principle's been transgressed' or Random luck to explain unparalleled evolution. Because I don't have any obligation to demonstrate what is plainly observed.

This is all that is needed to show that invoking on the basis of the uniqueness of human culture an interfering agent is invalid. There is no need to explain the data against that inference because it is invalid. And looking at the data will not make it valid. This is why I have avoided getting into the details. But as long as you are now happy to accept the invalidity of your inference lets look at some of that data.

The ancestor to primate first appeared around 8 million years ago. Bipedal walking appears around 4 million years ago. Bone tools first appear 2 Million years ago or so. It is generally accepted that the development of the human hand goes hand in hand with tool use, and a need for more complex tools pushed on by a bipedal walker who can make use of spears, and can carry things etc, plus a large brain to be able to experiment with different manufacturing techniques. Chimp hands for example are no good for flint napping. Also: there are tribal societies today that keep one flame on the go they carry around with them, rather than keep lighting new fires. (Even when you are skilled this is a difficult thing to do). Again you can only do that if you are bipedal, have free hands, and a reasonably sized brain. An increase in brain size which required more protein, which became more available through hunting with projectiles then spears, which required free hands. There is a multi strand convergence of biology and functionality, that lays the ground for the eventually appearance of modern human culture. And the convergence did not happen over night. It traces back 4 million years or so. In all that time different off shoots from the evolutionary same lines would have found themselves in competition over the same resources. And in the case of Neanderthals this meant extinction. As for an alternative to humans appearing from the same ancestor that started walking upright, then the answer to you question is theyve been and gone and the mergence of human culture is the result of humans being the.last hominid standing. There is no concrete principle that says humans have to be the only winners of this particular evolutionary struggle, but that this is the case is not unreasonable, and requires no extraneous explanation.

As for other species generating intelligence culture we know they will probably need to be bipedal if there are going to have free hands to manufacture tools. And the only species to achieve that have been primates. For another species to go that route will take as far as we know many millions of years, depending on which species you are thinking of; billions of years for bacteria. So that humans are alone is not surprising, and that their development is unparalleled not surprising either.

Does this answer you worries kingdomwith?

I don't have any obligation to demonstrate what is Plainly observed.

Sorry you do. Your obligation is to provide a cogent reason why an interfering agency is needed. You have offered no reasons at all other than the invalid - humans are unparalleled argument.