Eternal life - A curse or a blessing?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:41 pm

In the later years of my Christianity I started to think that maybe Heaven was simply too good to be true. But I found it interesting that some people saw eternal life as a curse rather than a blessing. I guess I can see the point for both arguments.

Iâ€™m reminded of one of Douglas Adamâ€™s characters; Marvin the Paranoid Android in "Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy". I can see now that Adams included this character as a bit of a dig at the concept of eternal life. That it was more of a curse. Marvin claims to be 10 times older than the universe due to regular time travel. He now knows everything there is to know and sees life as an incredible bore and everything seems menial to him. Nothing excites him. I wonder if it will become like that for us after a few million years in Heaven. How exciting will Heaven be once we know everything there is to know and there is no mystery left in it?

An extract of the story has Marvin talking about the sheer boredom of his life where for a small portion of his life he was a parking attendant at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe:

"The first ten million years were the worst. And the second ten million years, they were the worst too. The third ten million years I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into sort of a decline"

Another interesting aspect of Marvinâ€™s character is that because he is a robot, he will only ever do good. Which brings another interesting question of how God will ensure there is no sin in Heaven. Perhaps we will all be like Marvin? Programmed to only ever do good, with no real urges to sin. No real free will? But thatâ€™s probably another topic for another time.

So:
Is Eternal life in Heaven a curse or a blessing? Why?

What do you think we will do in Heaven? Can there be an infinite number of things to do? If there is a finite number, just how often will we be able to do them before we get bored?

Assuming that in Heaven we will learn everything there is to know about the universe and over time there will be no mystery left, will life continue to be exciting?

And for those who believe Hell to be a place of eternal torment. How will we enjoy Heaven knowing that our loved ones (perhaps our children) are at the same time being tortured in the pits of Hell?

QED · Post by **QED** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:53 am

If one were to exist eternally there would be severe motivational problems. Why do something if putting it off indefinitely had no consequences? This is just one example of the intimate dependencies we have on a non-heavenly existence.

The stable operation of our minds depends on there being contrasts in our lives. It is well known that absolutes (e.g. great wealth) do not bring happiness. We respond instead to relative ups and downs: the feel or prospect of change. The example of Christmas ocurrs to me now... every year I look forward to, and enjoy the Christmas festivities and the period building up to them. I know, however, that if it was Christmas every day then it wouldn't be anything like as enjoyable.

I think this makes any notion of an eternal life in paradise a complete nonsense if we are to retain any semblance of our minds and who we are.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:01 am

QED wrote:I think this makes any notion of an eternal life in paradise a complete nonsense if we are to retain any semblance of our minds and who we are.

Thus heavenly paradise, like an omnipotent god, is a logical impossibility.

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:11 pm

Ilias Ahmad wrote:"This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath, their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah" (Holy Quran, 5:119)

Radiya Allahu 'anhum wa radoo 'anhu (Allah pleased with them, and they pleased with Him). So this is the divine promise, the people of Paradise will be pleased. Allah never lies.

Just because "Allah said so" is no reason not to think about the things your religious texts claim. How about giving some thought to the questions I have posed?

What do you think we will do in Heaven? Can there be an infinite number of things to do? If there is a finite number, just how often will we be able to do them before we get bored?

Assuming that in Heaven we will learn everything there is to know about the universe and over time there will be no mystery left, will life continue to be exciting?

And for those who believe Hell to be a place of eternal torment. How will we enjoy Heaven knowing that our loved ones (perhaps our children) are at the same time being tortured in the pits of Hell?

QED · Post by **QED** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:24 am

The promise of "Eternal life" is cynical. It can be offered as a huge reward by those who are trusted and who know they will never be taken to task over their promise. I often wonder just how aware of this win/win situation the faithful are.

Ilias Ahmad · Post by **Ilias Ahmad** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:35 pm

Just because "Allah said so" is no reason not to think about the things your religious texts claim. How about giving some thought to the questions I have posed?

In fact, because Allah said so is all you need in order to answer this question. Remember, we are talking about the nature of Heaven and Hell. You as an unbeliever do not believe in the reality of Heaven and Hell in the first place. You are only hypothetically saying that "if Heaven exists" and from that presumption asking your question. So "if Heaven exists" than you must also presume Allah exists and everything that is in the Scripture is true.

What do you think we will do in Heaven? Can there be an infinite number of things to do? If there is a finite number, just how often will we be able to do them before we get bored?

I can see that your biggest problem is understanding the Hereafter in terms of this life. This is your problem.

What is the life of this world but play and amusement? But best is the home in the Hereafter, for those who are righteous. Will ye not then understand? (Holy Quran 6:32)

The very nature of the Hereafter is so different, that in comparison, this world is nothing but amusement and play, an illusory abode.

Assuming that in Heaven we will learn everything there is to know about the universe and over time there will be no mystery left, will life continue to be exciting?

In Heaven you will forget about this life, including the universe. It is nothing in comparison to what is in store for the Believers. It is a reward that will not be cut off according to the Holy Quran.

And for those who believe Hell to be a place of eternal torment. How will we enjoy Heaven knowing that our loved ones (perhaps our children) are at the same time being tortured in the pits of Hell?

It is the disbelievers who go to hell. How can a disbeliever be a "loved one" of a believer?

JoeyKnothead · Post by **JoeyKnothead** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:31 pm

ilias ahmed wrote:

It is the disbelievers who go to hell. How can a disbeliever be a "loved one" of a believer?

This points out just how organized religion divides people far more than it will ever bring them together. It is better to hate those who disagree, than to love them, and try to accept them. Whatever it takes for you to believe this super being, who loves you, and cares for you, he's just not good with money (with love to GC).

Lest someone get all Foghorn Leghorn on me, I caution you to stop, read the quote, and then proceed. It is these kinds of statements, made 'off the cuff' that get turned into truths.

I would ask ilias ahmed, if the person you most loved were to tell you they are atheist, or some other religion than your own, would you then quit loving them? Would you stop having contact? Would you relentlessly press them to become 'of the one true faith'? Would you find it impossible to accept them as human beings, worthy of all the respect your religion demands for itself? Would you be glad they are in Hell?

Who here is devoid of compassion that they would not want ALL of God's creatures to see paradise?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:05 pm

Ilias Ahmad wrote:It is the disbelievers who go to hell. How can a disbeliever be a "loved one" of a believer?

If I were to convert to Islam, my wife, my parents and my children would then cease to be loved ones to me. Not that I was looking for yet another reason to avoid becoming a Muslim, but thanks. I'll add it to the list.

Ilias Ahmad · Post by **Ilias Ahmad** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:30 am

I would ask ilias ahmed, if the person you most loved were to tell you they are atheist, or some other religion than your own, would you then quit loving them?

We Muslims are fond of telling our loved ones: "I love you for the sake of Allah". That which bonds believers together in mutual love, compassion and brotherhood is their shared belief in La illaha ila Allah (there is none worthy of worship except Allah), and nothing else. If someone whom I loved were to apostatize from the religion of Islam (God forbid), I would definitely be very hurt and disappointed. I would also lose all my respect and love for such a person.

Every Muslim loves Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) the most. More than his parents, more than his children, even more than he loves himself. We love him, the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) because he was the perfection of faith and belief, and he is the most dearest to God from all His creation. This love is rooted in belief.

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:02 am

Ilias Ahmad wrote:
Just because "Allah said so" is no reason not to think about the things your religious texts claim. How about giving some thought to the questions I have posed?
In fact, because Allah said so is all you need in order to answer this question.

For you it may be but for the majority of members here it isn't. I personally would take Allah as seriously as I would the tooth fairy.

Ilias Ahmad wrote: Remember, we are talking about the nature of Heaven and Hell. You as an unbeliever do not believe in the reality of Heaven and Hell in the first place. You are only hypothetically saying that "if Heaven exists" and from that presumption asking your question. So "if Heaven exists" than you must also presume Allah exists and everything that is in the Scripture is true.

The idea of this thread is to get people thinking. Notice it is in the "philosophy" part of the forum. Philosophy is not about preaching and saying "Because my God said so". It is about considering possibilities. Saying "Because Allah said so" is not considering possibilites and it is not showing a willingness to think. Perhaps you'd be better of staying out of the Philosophy forum.

What do you think we will do in Heaven? Can there be an infinite number of things to do? If there is a finite number, just how often will we be able to do them before we get bored?

I can see that your biggest problem is understanding the Hereafter in terms of this life. This is your problem.

What is the life of this world but play and amusement? But best is the home in the Hereafter, for those who are righteous. Will ye not then understand? (Holy Quran 6:32)

The very nature of the Hereafter is so different, that in comparison, this world is nothing but amusement and play, an illusory abode.

There is no problem with understanding here. You will be doing something in Heaven. You're not just going to be sitting around thinking "wow, what a great place" for all of eternity are you? I'm not suggesting its all about play. Please describe what you think you will be doing in Heaven. Philosophise!

Assuming that in Heaven we will learn everything there is to know about the universe and over time there will be no mystery left, will life continue to be exciting?

Ilias Ahmad wrote: In Heaven you will forget about this life, including the universe. It is nothing in comparison to what is in store for the Believers. It is a reward that will not be cut off according to the Holy Quran.

And what evidence (even from the Quran) do you have to suggest that you will forget about your former life? Do you believe in freewill? How can you have freewill if your memory is wiped? What is the point on all the lessons you learn on Earth if they are just going to be wiped from your memory?

It is the disbelievers who go to hell. How can a disbeliever be a "loved one" of a believer?

WHAT? Are you suggesting that if a loved one of yours rejects Allah you will cease to love them? What sort of person are you? What sort of religion is Islam if you automatically despise your most loved family members just because they don't follow your religion? What about your own children for Allah's sake?

We Muslims are fond of telling our loved ones: "I love you for the sake of Allah". That which bonds believers together in mutual love, compassion and brotherhood is their shared belief in La illaha ila Allah (there is none worthy of worship except Allah), and nothing else. If someone whom I loved were to apostatize from the religion of Islam (God forbid), I would definitely be very hurt and disappointed. I would also lose all my respect and love for such a person.

My God. I never realised that Islam was as bad as this. If you lose your love for someone because of this, it can't have been real love in the first place. You don't stop loving someone because of something like that.

I see you are 19 years old. No doubt your opinion will change when you have kids of your own. Once you have your own kids, you'll experience love you've never felt before, I can gaurantee you. It won't be the sort of love you just cease having, even if that child were to disown you and refuse to follow your religion.

QED · Post by **QED** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:11 am

OnceConvinced wrote: I see you are 19 years old. No doubt your opinion will change when you have kids of your own. Once you have your own kids, you'll experience love you've never felt before, I can gaurantee you. It won't be the sort of love you just cease having, even if that child were to disown you and refuse to follow your religion.

To be otherwise would be inhuman. Unfortunately that is the power that religion has over people. Unlike most other animals our highly developed brains are sometimes capable of overriding the best and the worst that natural selection has instilled in us. The biggest threat to humanity is in letting arbitrary ideas set us against each other needlessly.