Religeon

[Not Brainwashed]

Im am From Essex in England and i do not believe in God, I do see how i can believe something i cannot see, feel, smell etc. Can anybody please explain how you do believe in " God "?
Thanks

[Jerada Davidhefter]

You spelled RELIGION incorrectly. Seriously. It's in the website's title.

[ryeman]

Hi McCulloch!

I believe in gnomes because they believe in me.

Nice!

Humans are easily fooled. Inner knowing is not a reliable source of truth.

Humans can be fooled just as easily by external sources of information. For example, mass media advertising does a great job in fooling people.

Really? How do I choose to believe something?

Consider you next response.

You should not limit yourself so.

What makes you believe I that I am limiting myself based on this small sample of information? This is the first post we have traded and you already presume to tell me what I should believe about myself. With all due respect McCulloch, perhaps you should critically examine your own personal perception of truth and not presume to tell others what to believe.

You can critically examine you personal perception of truth, with objective and repeatable facts.

Another belief. One I happen to agree with but only if these objective and repeatable facts ring true. However, so much of our societies' objective and repeatable facts are nothing more than programming protocols of a master intellectual fraud. One that has been quite successful in fooling the masses.

Compare your personal perception of truth with other people's truth and work together with human society to compile a greater truth than your own personal one.

Another belief. Of course, you would have no way of knowing this, McCulloch, but I have already been doing this by participating on several different discussion forums for several years now. Indeed, this is one of the reasons I have joined this discussion forum. Duh! So when you presume to display your ignorance as though it were a cosmic revelation, I just gotta laugh!

Randy

[McCulloch]

Humans are easily fooled. Inner knowing is not a reliable source of truth.

Humans can be fooled just as easily by external sources of information. For example, mass media advertising does a great job in fooling people.

Right! One cannot be too skeptical.

Really? How do I choose to believe something?

Consider you next response.

Thank you, I have. It did not answer the question. Here, try this. Choose to believe that you will be the next president of the United States. Did it work?

I can only state the truth as best as I perceive it.

You should not limit yourself so.

What makes you believe I that I am limiting myself based on this small sample of information?

I was responding to your own statement of your limitations. Forgive me for not communicating clearly, I only intended this to apply to this one statement. We should all not limit ourselves to stating the truth as best as we perceive it. Humans are a social species. We can use the experiences and wisdom of others to validate more truth than any single one of us could. That is all that I meant to imply. Again forgive me for communicating so clumsily as to give you the idea that I intended this to be more general.

With all due respect McCulloch, perhaps you should critically examine your own personal perception of truth

I have and continue to do so.

and not presume to tell others what to believe.

I try not to tell others what to believe. But on the other hand, I do not refrain from challenging others' beliefs nor supporting my own against such challenges.

However, so much of our societies' objective and repeatable facts are nothing more than programming protocols of a master intellectual fraud. One that has been quite successful in fooling the masses.

An apt description of most religions.

So when you presume to display your ignorance as though it were a cosmic revelation, I just gotta laugh!

I have no cosmic revelations. However, I admit my ignorance. I don't know anything about spirits (Holy and otherwise), souls, the afterlife, God, gods, gnomes, fairies, angels, demons, satan, djinn, elves, sin and redemption. I strongly suspect that no one else does either but will not admit it.

[Zzyzx]

.

Of course, you would have no way of knowing this, McCulloch, but I have already been doing this by participating on several different discussion forums for several years now. Indeed, this is one of the reasons I have joined this discussion forum.

After participating in several forums it should become apparent to a thinking person that respect is not earned by making statements such as:

Duh! So when you presume to display your ignorance as though it were a cosmic revelation, I just gotta laugh!

That is similar to statements made here by fanatics and fundamentalists when they are frustrated by encountering arguments that they cannot counter.

I was interested in your introduction – but was disappointed to encounter the above attitude in this thread.

[ryeman]

Zzyzx

Well, I suppose if you never have any expectations you'll never be disappointed. Both fanatics and fundamentalists expect you to believe as they do. I have no such expectations and I have no need to live up to yours. I am not here to sell you on religion.

ryeman wrote:

However, so much of our societies' objective and repeatable facts are nothing more than programming protocols of a master intellectual fraud. One that has been quite successful in fooling the masses.

McCulloch wrote:

An apt description of most religions.

Agreed. But what else? There are more. If you control what people believe you control them. And a thinking person would do well to identify these programming protocols in their own thought processes.

For example, we are taught to believe in the value of money from a very early age. For so many people money is a religion. Paper money has no real inherent value. But we are taught to believe it does. This is why Federal Reserve Notes clearly have "In God We Trust" printed on them. We spend our lives working to acquire something which isn't truly real. Money is another of the programming protocols of the master intellectual fraud and it was created by the same programmers who brought us organized religion. Those who create and control money are the same people who create and control organized religion. The institution of money is no different than the institution of religion. Going to a bank is no different than going to a church. Both require you to believe and worship at the altar of their institutional deity.

The same people who created money and religion created the mass media. Both the institutions of mass media and entertainment serve the same purpose. For many people entertainment is a religion. These also require you to believe and worship at their institutional deity. They're different aspects of the same programming protocols which reinforce the master intellectual fraud by controlling what the masses believe. This brief and over simplified summary barely scratches the surface. There is more. Our entire virtual reality is based upon deception. Deception which I refer to as the programming protocols of the master intellectual fraud.

Randy

[Zzyzx]

.

Well, I suppose if you never have any expectations you'll never be disappointed. Both fanatics and fundamentalists expect you to believe as they do. I have no such expectations and I have no need to live up to yours.

Is the personal pronoun “you� as used above intended to be general or specific? Are you referring to me personally or to people in general?

I am unaware of anyone who “never has any expectations�. Do such people exist in the real world or is this being discussed hypothetically?

If your mention of disappointment refers to my disappointment with your statement, “Duh! So when you presume to display your ignorance as though it were a cosmic revelation, I just gotta laugh!� I acknowledge that based upon your introduction in another thread I did expect you to debate without resorting to ad hominems and immature responses.

I am not here to sell you on religion.

Are you here to promote or defend religion? To question or challenge religion? Or something else?

What is your motivation for posting in this forum?

For so many people money is a religion. Paper money has no real inherent value. But we are taught to believe it does. This is why Federal Reserve Notes clearly have "In God We Trust" printed on them. We spend our lives working to acquire something which isn't truly real.

Do you personally spend your life working to acquire “something which isn’t truly real� (i.e., fiat currency, FRNs, paper money)? If so, why since you regard it a fraud?

What do you promote and use as an alternative to paper (or electronic) currency?

Some of us to whom you evidently address these comments understand that money has no inherent value and that life need not be focused upon (or much influenced by) acquisition of money or possessions. I subscribe to those ideas and LIVE by those ideas. I have not devoted my life to acquiring money or possessions (and have been free of wage-slavery for nearly thirty years).

Are we not free to reject the teachings of financiers and prophets and media? Can we decide for ourselves that we will focus our lives upon things not promoted to the masses?

Money is another of the programming protocols of the master intellectual fraud and it was created by the same programmers who brought us organized religion.

I question “the master intellectual fraud� and “programmers� if those claims are presented as a though originating from a single organization or group.

Can you identify the people and organizations that commit the “master intellectual fraud� and do the “programming� (and own or control currency, religion and media)?

I do not disagree that “programming� is done by MANY organizations, groups and individuals – but question the concept of a central source.

Those who create and control money are the same people who create and control organized religion.

Can you document this claim?

The institution of money is no different than the institution of religion. Going to a bank is no different than going to a church. Both require you to believe and worship at the altar of their institutional deity.

There are some similarities; however, claiming that there is no difference does not seem to be accurate.

The same people who created money and religion created the mass media.

It might be more accurate to say “the same mindset� creates institutions from banks to churches to media. It need not involve the same people personally (unless you can document the connection).

[ryeman]

Zzyzx,

It would appear that we share many of the same beliefs and I could provide some documentation to support my claims. However, I'd like to invite you to conduct your own research into the matter if it interests you.

Randy

[Zzyzx]

.

It would appear that we share many of the same beliefs and I could provide some documentation to support my claims.

Whether we share beliefs or not, in debate when you are asked to substantiate what you say you are expected to be able and willing to do so. If you will not or cannot, you are preaching opinion rather than debating (regardless of your point of view) and your credibiltiy suffers.

However, I'd like to invite you to conduct your own research into the matter if it interests you.

I have conducted a good deal of research into these matters and have reached slightly different conclusions. If you present evidence to support your ideas I may choose to offer counterpoints and to substantiate different conclusions.

Saying, “conduct your own research� in a debate is no different than a Theist saying “read the bible and learn�.

Let’s try again. I challenge you to support your contentions by identifying the people and organizations that you say commit the “master intellectual fraud� and do the “programming� AND show evidence to support the contention that they own or control currency, religion and media.

[beankitty]

Im am From Essex in England and i do not believe in God, I do see how i can believe something i cannot see, feel, smell etc. Can anybody please explain how you do believe in " God "?
Thanks

I experience the Gods with all my senses.

[Zzyzx]

.

Im am From Essex in England and i do not believe in God, I do see how i can believe something i cannot see, feel, smell etc. Can anybody please explain how you do believe in " God "?
Thanks

I experience the Gods with all my senses.

Can you be certain that personal experiences you attribute to the "gods" are not your own mental processes?

Can you identify the "gods"?

Are your experiences transferable to others?