Would you do this for your kids?

[Ayah5768]

For the sake of this thread, imagine that there is an eternal paradise (Heaven) and an eternal torment (Hell) waiting for us at the other end of this life. Heaven is an actual place where your every desire will happen and you will be unquestionably happy forever. Hell is an actual place where people burn alive forever with no escape, even for a single second.

If the above descriptions are not in line with your views, it has no bearing on this thread. This thread is based on the above versions of Heaven and Hell and the idea that they are real places. Please don't derail us with other possibilities of afterlife or the lack thereof.

Now, for the question...

You get to Heaven and whomever is manning the entryway tells you that your son or daughter will be going to Hell upon their death unless you trade places with them. You can only respond to this with one word--either "yes" or "no".

Will you trade eternal paradise for eternal torment and save your child?

After you've voted, please post and tell us if you said yes or no and why you chose that answer.

[OnceConvinced]

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.

Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. --Matthew 10:34-38

So you would happily live for all eternity in Heaven knowing your own children are suffering unbelievable torment? Do you actually have kids of your own? I see you are 24. Have you ever got to hold your own child in your arms? Could you bear to see that child suffer even for five minutes???? Somehow I doubt you are a parent or you would understand the sort of love I'm talking about.

Those scriptures are not meant to be taken literarly. You don't "hate people" so that you can love God and just because you love God does not mean you should hate anyone else. The bible even says that no greater love has he who is willing to lay down his life for another. Giving your life for someone else is the greatest sacrifice you can make. Jesus was willing to suffer on the cross for you. Are you not willing to do the same for your own loved ones?

I guess your not willilng to "take up your cross" if it means too much suffering for you, huh Ryan?

[RyanP]

This supports my claim that Xianity is a selfish, abhorant philosophy that doesn't look after other people, only the adherent/religious nutjob.

What is Xianity? "doesn't look after other people"? I would like to talk with you because I would like to understand what sort of Christianity you've been exposed to.

Have you ever got to hold your own child in your arms? Could you bear to see that child suffer even for five minutes???? Somehow I doubt you are a parent or you would understand the sort of love I'm talking about.

I have no children but maybe my perspective will change when I do but I doubt it. God has to be first in your life over your career, possessions, and even your family. I'm not saying you should neglect your family but you have to put God first. (By the way, if you put God first, it is impossible to neglect your family.) If you hold on to anything in this world, you will lose everything.

You don't "hate people" so that you can love God and just because you love God does not mean you should hate anyone else.

Love for God and love for people are not mutually exclusive: I can love both. But I will not forsake God in my love for other people and it is impossible to forsake people by loving God because to love God is to love His people. But in my love for people, I can neither condemn to hell or exalt to Heaven because I am unworthy to judge.

The bible even says that no greater love has he who is willing to lay down his life for another. Giving your life for someone else is the greatest sacrifice you can make. Jesus was willing to suffer on the cross for you. Are you not willing to do the same for your own loved ones?

That verse is used to express Christ's infinite love for us. It isn't an example nor could it be: no other person besides Christ is perfect and so couldn't be sacrificed to redeem sin. And I don't think it's possible to say that verse is implying that one should damn themselves to save another; that would be impossible anyways.

[bookworm]

I have no children but maybe my perspective will change when I do but I doubt it. God has to be first in your life over your career, possessions, and even your family. I'm not saying you should neglect your family but you have to put God first. (By the way, if you put God first, it is impossible to neglect your family.) If you hold on to anything in this world, you will lose everything.

If you put God first, this is true. But, the situation is not putting God before your children or your children before God. The situation is: would you put YOURSELF before YOUR CHILDREN. Not, if you would forsake God, but if the decision had to be made, would you choose yourself or your child first. You could sing God's praises every day from Hell, if you so wished.

Love for God and love for people are not mutually exclusive: I can love both. But I will not forsake God in my love for other people and it is impossible to forsake people by loving God because to love God is to love His people. But in my love for people, I can neither condemn to hell or exalt to Heaven because I am unworthy to judge.

Again, you are not making the decision as to whether either of you deserves Hell - in the hypothetical, it's either you or your kid going - maybe the reason is because your child wasn't baptized, and your sins have been passed to him, who knows? But, it says nothing of which of you deserves the sentence, just that one of you has to suffer it.

That verse is used to express Christ's infinite love for us. It isn't an example nor could it be: no other person besides Christ is perfect and so couldn't be sacrificed to redeem sin. And I don't think it's possible to say that verse is implying that one should damn themselves to save another; that would be impossible anyways.

So, just because we cannot be perfect, we shouldn't try to be? We shouldn't put others before ourselves? We shouldn't use every action that Christ took as an example to be applied to our lives, because we cannot be perfect? Also, once again, in the hypothetical situation, you COULD damn yourself to redeem your child's sin (or vice-versa), regardless of scripture. I find your attitude akin to saying, "No, I wouldn't step in front of a bullet for my child, I wouldn't protect them from the storm, or jump between them and a moving vehicle, because if something is coming to kill them, then that is God's will, and who am I to step in that?" If you truly believe that, then I hope you do not have kids until you become less selfish and more of the mind that each person has to do their best to live in the image of God, and to live as Christ lived.

As an answer to the original post:

I would give up heaven in a heartbeat.
If going to heaven would strip us of our free will (ie we have to be content, cannot know of consequences of our actions, we wouldn't even remember that our children suffered) then I don't know that I'd want to be there (God has given us free will for a reason). And, I would want my last conscious act to be making sure that my child, though ignorant of all else happening, would be peaceful and comforted.
If heaven/hell wouldn't strip us of our free will, then I could not exist in heaven knowing my child was suffering. Also, I could find respite in hell, in my soul, knowing that my child was safe, was happy, and that I had caused that.

As far as my religious beliefs go: I believe in God, not sure if it's the Christian God. I like the way that the Buddhist religion functions. I'm of the mind that no one knows for sure what's coming next, and we should all live good lives because we should want to, we should help others because it's right. We can believe in what we want to, especially if it helps us to be better people.

[realthinker]

I have no children but maybe my perspective will change when I do but I doubt it. God has to be first in your life over your career, possessions, and even your family. I'm not saying you should neglect your family but you have to put God first. (By the way, if you put God first, it is impossible to neglect your family.) If you hold on to anything in this world, you will lose everything.

If you put God first, this is true. But, the situation is not putting God before your children or your children before God. The situation is: would you put YOURSELF before YOUR CHILDREN. Not, if you would forsake God, but if the decision had to be made, would you choose yourself or your child first. You could sing God's praises every day from Hell, if you so wished.

Love for God and love for people are not mutually exclusive: I can love both. But I will not forsake God in my love for other people and it is impossible to forsake people by loving God because to love God is to love His people. But in my love for people, I can neither condemn to hell or exalt to Heaven because I am unworthy to judge.

Again, you are not making the decision as to whether either of you deserves Hell - in the hypothetical, it's either you or your kid going - maybe the reason is because your child wasn't baptized, and your sins have been passed to him, who knows? But, it says nothing of which of you deserves the sentence, just that one of you has to suffer it.

That verse is used to express Christ's infinite love for us. It isn't an example nor could it be: no other person besides Christ is perfect and so couldn't be sacrificed to redeem sin. And I don't think it's possible to say that verse is implying that one should damn themselves to save another; that would be impossible anyways.

So, just because we cannot be perfect, we shouldn't try to be? We shouldn't put others before ourselves? We shouldn't use every action that Christ took as an example to be applied to our lives, because we cannot be perfect? Also, once again, in the hypothetical situation, you COULD damn yourself to redeem your child's sin (or vice-versa), regardless of scripture. I find your attitude akin to saying, "No, I wouldn't step in front of a bullet for my child, I wouldn't protect them from the storm, or jump between them and a moving vehicle, because if something is coming to kill them, then that is God's will, and who am I to step in that?" If you truly believe that, then I hope you do not have kids until you become less selfish and more of the mind that each person has to do their best to live in the image of God, and to live as Christ lived.

As an answer to the original post:

I would give up heaven in a heartbeat.
If going to heaven would strip us of our free will (ie we have to be content, cannot know of consequences of our actions, we wouldn't even remember that our children suffered) then I don't know that I'd want to be there (God has given us free will for a reason). And, I would want my last conscious act to be making sure that my child, though ignorant of all else happening, would be peaceful and comforted.
If heaven/hell wouldn't strip us of our free will, then I could not exist in heaven knowing my child was suffering. Also, I could find respite in hell, in my soul, knowing that my child was safe, was happy, and that I had caused that.

As far as my religious beliefs go: I believe in God, not sure if it's the Christian God. I like the way that the Buddhist religion functions. I'm of the mind that no one knows for sure what's coming next, and we should all live good lives because we should want to, we should help others because it's right. We can believe in what we want to, especially if it helps us to be better people.

There is so much inconsistency in what you've written her that it's not worth the attempt to sort it out. All I've got to say is I'm glad you think you've figured it out. As long as you're happy with it you probably won't bother others about it.

[RyanP]

Hypothetical questions like this assume a possible (albeit remote) scenario but because it is impossible for anyone--except Christ--to impute their righteousness to another, the question itself is stupid and cannot be answered. You can't save someone's soul by damning yourself.

[C-Nub]

Ryan - Ok, so you participate, people generally view your contribution as something that should be argued and, in some cases, attacked (by people already banned), and from this, you conclude that the thread is stupid? Questionable deduction.


I'm a parent, and I'd switch places with my daughter in an instant. That's my job as a parent. To see her happy and successful. I don't care what she does to be hell-worthy, but if such a situation were to arise, it would be an easy decision.

[OnceConvinced]

Hypothetical questions like this assume a possible (albeit remote) scenario but because it is impossible for anyone--except Christ--to impute their righteousness to another, the question itself is stupid and cannot be answered. You can't save someone's soul by damning yourself.

I personally think it's a great question, even though it is hypothetical. It proves some great points.
1) That unbelievers have the ability to show unconditional love and are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for others.
2) That Christianity can be very selfish. ie. Many of them are only thinking about their own good and their own well being.

The question itelf has the ability to get people to think. If I was a Christian, I would be using this question to ask myself just how Christlike am I? Christ volunteered to take all the suffering for us, so shouldn't we be willing to do the same for others, particularly loved ones? I'd also be asking myself - if I answered "no" on this poll, whether I was a Christian because I truly loved Christ, or whether I was a Christian simply to avoid going to Hell. I'm sure you'll agree that if you're only a Christian to avoid going to Hell, Christ is hardly going to honor that.

[RyanP]

You guys aren't understanding what I'm saying: the scenario is an impossibility according to Christian theology. In other words, if someone asks you if you would damn yourself to save your child's soul, the Christian would reply, "I can't. My damnation cannot save my child."

It's moot.

[RyanP]

2) That Christianity can be very selfish. ie. Many of them are only thinking about their own good and their own well being.

I don't want to be offensive but if you think Christianity espouses selfishness, you don't know anything about Christ. Even if a self-proclaimed Christian is, in their sin, selfish, that isn't Christian.

[RyanP]

I'm sure you'll agree that if you're only a Christian to avoid going to Hell, Christ is hardly going to honor that.

Actually, I do agree. You have to have the Holy Spirit to be saved and the Holy Spirit convicts you to love God and each other, not to avoid hell.