Religeon

[Not Brainwashed]

Im am From Essex in England and i do not believe in God, I do see how i can believe something i cannot see, feel, smell etc. Can anybody please explain how you do believe in " God "?
Thanks

[Zzyzx]

[beankitty]

[beankitty]

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Are you willing to demonstrate your magic tricks to a skeptical group – one that might include "Myth Busters"? What kind of magic tricks might you perform for them? Or, does your magic ability disappear when it is questioned or challenged?

All Pagans are skeptical - that is how we became Pagans to begin with. What tricks are you talking about? I'd love to go on Myth Busters or have a chat with James Randi about what I believe, and what Paganism is about. I could try to explain Witchcraft for them as well. But as far as performing magic on stage? We are not magicians. This misconception is the reason people add a "k" on the end of "magic" in order to separate the two. Ritual is personal, and to be conducted between fellow believers. It is not a game. I don't need anyone to believe in magic - or believe in Zeus. It's just a belief, not a "fact."

[Beto]

.

Are you willing to demonstrate your magic tricks to a skeptical group – one that might include "Myth Busters"? What kind of magic tricks might you perform for them? Or, does your magic ability disappear when it is questioned or challenged?

All Pagans are skeptical - that is how we became Pagans to begin with. What tricks are you talking about? I'd love to go on Myth Busters or have a chat with James Randi about what I believe, and what Paganism is about. I could try to explain Witchcraft for them as well. But as far as performing magic on stage? We are not magicians. This misconception is the reason people add a "k" on the end of "magic" in order to separate the two. Ritual is personal, and to be conducted between fellow believers. It is not a game. I don't need anyone to believe in magic - or believe in Zeus. It's just a belief, not a "fact."

Isn't witchcraft about "influencing a favorable outcome" through "will"?

[beankitty]

.

Are you willing to demonstrate your magic tricks to a skeptical group – one that might include "Myth Busters"? What kind of magic tricks might you perform for them? Or, does your magic ability disappear when it is questioned or challenged?

All Pagans are skeptical - that is how we became Pagans to begin with. What tricks are you talking about? I'd love to go on Myth Busters or have a chat with James Randi about what I believe, and what Paganism is about. I could try to explain Witchcraft for them as well. But as far as performing magic on stage? We are not magicians. This misconception is the reason people add a "k" on the end of "magic" in order to separate the two. Ritual is personal, and to be conducted between fellow believers. It is not a game. I don't need anyone to believe in magic - or believe in Zeus. It's just a belief, not a "fact."

Isn't witchcraft about "influencing a favorable outcome" through "will"?

Yeah, you could say that. There's no official agreement on what it is - there are many different takes. But that is one of them. It's like an intricate form of prayer.

[Beto]

.

Are you willing to demonstrate your magic tricks to a skeptical group – one that might include "Myth Busters"? What kind of magic tricks might you perform for them? Or, does your magic ability disappear when it is questioned or challenged?

All Pagans are skeptical - that is how we became Pagans to begin with. What tricks are you talking about? I'd love to go on Myth Busters or have a chat with James Randi about what I believe, and what Paganism is about. I could try to explain Witchcraft for them as well. But as far as performing magic on stage? We are not magicians. This misconception is the reason people add a "k" on the end of "magic" in order to separate the two. Ritual is personal, and to be conducted between fellow believers. It is not a game. I don't need anyone to believe in magic - or believe in Zeus. It's just a belief, not a "fact."

Isn't witchcraft about "influencing a favorable outcome" through "will"?

Yeah, you could say that. There's no official agreement on what it is - there are many different takes. But that is one of them. It's like an intricate form of prayer.

In a very broad sense of "prayer", perhaps.

Suppose we have several people tossing a coin a thousand times. One of which is what we might consider a powerful witch. For the sake of argument, one that is recognized by several covenants, as the "real deal". If such a person desires to, can the distribution be affected to an unlikely degree, so as to provide a measure of evidence (subjective as it is) to support authenticity?

[Zzyzx]

[beankitty]

[Zzyzx]

.

I wasn't aware that was an attempt to "convice others" of my beliefs.

What is your motivation for posting to this forum?

Is your proposed "magic" a form of supernaturalism?

Is the length of time a proposed or imaginary entity has been worshiped by humans verification of truth or existence?

No, but you are mocking ancient cultures' belief systems, comparing them to Santa Claus. Whether or not Gods are imaginary is no reason to compare a beautiful culture's history to something silly.

Comparing ancient cultures' belief systems to Santa Claus may well be insulting Santa, and it is the beliefs that may be silliest (and most damaging).

I am not certain that cultural evolution can proceed based upon speculation alone.

Why?

I am not certain because I have seen no evidence to affirm that cultural evolution can proceed based upon speculation alone. Notice that I said, "I am not certain" and did NOT say "cultural evolution cannot . . ."

Would you care to provide that evidence?

Do your magical claims hold up under investigation? Have you checked?

No.

Thank you. If you have not checked whether your claims of performing magic are true, how can you ethically claim to have performed magic?

Again, science cannot measure spirituality

Science CAN measure CLAIMS made in the name of spirituality. When claims are made that events are influenced by "magic", those claims can be studied to see if there were actual effects AND if all other causes can be eliminated.

Apparently you realize that claims can be scientifically analyzed – and refuse to identify the "magic" that you claim to have performed or to perform magic in public. .

Are you recruiting, promoting, soliciting or proselytizing?

No... and I find it offensive you have suggested that. Why are you asking me to "kindly expand on the subject" if you are just going to suggest I'm proselytizing?

You made a claim in a debate forum. I asked for verification. I made NO suggestion, but asked for evidence of truth. That evidence has not been provided.

What's an example of the way "psychics" work for people? Seeing a psychic can be the same thing as seeing a psychologist - are psychics not at least a little knowledgable about psychology after all? Psychics can provide advice, comfort, reassurance, everything. Sounds like it works pretty well to me.

By the same reasoning telling one's troubles to a bartender can "work" if the bartender offers advice, comfort and reassurance. Correct?

Is that the way "magick" works too?

Am I required to share your beliefs before the "magic" works or before evidence can be presented? If so, that is the same "argument" presented by Christians when they cannot provide evidence of their magical claims.

Yes.

Thank you

You make my case. "Magick" ONLY "works" if a person believes in magic.

Things that are true or factual do not depend upon belief – as jumping from a tall building will demonstrate. No matter what one might believe about not falling the truth is that they will fall.

Do you offer proof that gods are real or that magic "works" in the real world (not just in the opinion of believers)?

How can you prove that magic works and not attribute that to opinion?

1. Predict that you can make something happen using your "magic".
2. Make it happen in full public view.
3. Demonstrate that other possible causes have been negated.
4. Answer critics' criticisms with evidence.

Those things that are private and personal cannot be used to substantiate claims. In my opinion, it is inappropriate to discuss or refer to things that are private and personal in a debate – knowing that they will not or should not be discussed.

Okay, so for the future, I should just gloss over answering personal questions directed at me?

In the future you should NOT make claims that you cannot or will not substantiate with evidence.

What is the difference between "illusion" (defined as "a misleading image presented to the vision; or something that deceives or misleads intellectually) and "the art of changing consciousness at will"?

Changing consciousness isn't a false image, last I checked. Say you use meditation to resolve inner conflict - break bad habits, lose weight, whatever.

Are you claiming that your "magic" (changing consciousness at will) is demonstrated by resolving inner conflict, breaking bad habits, losing weight, etc?

If so, how do you account for the same things happening involving people who do not "do magic"? Has each person who has deliberately lost weight performed "magick"?

How does that correlate to an illusion? If you protest against the use of plastic bags and influence those arounds you, what does that have to do with illusions?

Protesting against use of plastic bags has nothing to do with illusion AND NOTHING to do with "magic" or "magick".

How do you define the latter term? [Referring to "the art of changing consciousness at will"]

Using will, intention, to change the world around you, and the world within you.

How does that differ from "Non-Magical" will or intention to change the world around or within?

If I decide to change something in my environment and do so, have I demonstrated the ability to perform "magic" or "magick"?

Sheesh. You are fiesty! I care for witchcraft, not tricks. It's just like an intricate form of prayer.

I am a realist – who is not easily persuaded by smoke and mirrors. I ask questions that often expose the weakness, misunderstanding or falsity of supernatural claims.

It is interesting that you compare witchcraft to prayer – neither can be shown to produce the results claimed.

When one is skeptical they typically require that claims be substantiated. Do you (or Pagans) do that when claims of "magic" are made?

Yes. Claims made by others within the Pagan community are not made into "beliefs" by the followers. We all believe different things, based on personal experience. That's why we don't have a Bible of sorts.

How does the Pagan community verify that claims made by members are true, actual, literal? Are there tests or investigations into magical claims – or are such claims just accepted as being true without investigation?

What tricks are you talking about?

I am talking about whatever "magic" you think you have performed or demonstrated as claimed. You are being less than forthright about what you claim to be able to do.

I really don't understand what you are asking.

1. You apparently are claiming that you can "do magic".
2. I ask if you have actually done "magic" and can demonstrate having done so.
3. What do you not understand about that very straight-forward question?

There was no suggestion of performing magic on stage. I asked if you were willing to demonstrate your magic abilities before a group that did not share your belief that you can perform magic.

Are you asking if I would be willing or if witches in general do? The Church and School of Wicca frequently has workshops of demonstrating magic to those who do not believe it.

I ask specifically if YOU are willing to demonstrate your magic abilities before a group that does not share your belief that you can perform magic.

What about that question is difficult to understand?

What distinguishes between your "magic" and that of a "magician"?

You fail to show any difference between your "magic" (or "magick") and that performed by "magicians" (or illusionists). Kindly do so.

The so-called "magic" you are referring to is the stereotypical view of witchcraft - related to slight-of-hand stage tricks and whatnot. Magick, however, is finding our connection to Nature, the Earth.

How is "magick" different from naturalism / naturism (which stress connection to nature)?

If I live very close to nature and seek connection to nature, am I performing "magick" or "witchcraft"?

Magic is living in the balance - altering our lives to be balanced, to be responsible, to care for ourselves and others.

What, exactly, is the meaning of "balance" as you use the term?

If I am "responsible" and "care for myself and others" am I performing "magick"?

It is changing ourselves in order to change global consciousness.

How is this "magick" different from any cultural change that involves "consciousness"?

How is this "magick" any different from simply deciding to change something about the self (such as losing weight or learning about a subject or becoming more compassionate)?

Magick is realizing that the things we imagine, we have the Power to create.

If an inventor imagines a device and creates it, has s/he performed "magick" by your definitions?

If it is "just a belief" and is "not a fact", what distinguishes your magic from imagination?

Imagination has given birth to the things around us, like this computer I'm typing on. It is the first step to creation. So why would it need to be distinguised from imagination?

It seems as though you are attempting to hijack imagination and creativity to call them "magick". Those things exist in people who are not Pagans, Wicca's, Supernaturalists, etc – so they are NOT owned by (or exclusive to) witchcraft.