czollers wrote:ok, that was a funny post. i like you! your stock goes up in my book....
Thanks.. I try to be entertaining.
...but i still think you're wrong.
here's what i think the differences between christianity & spiritualism are.
1. Christianity has been tested by time. despite the endless efforts of disbelievers, and despite the exceeding unlikeliness that the story would go beyond local 1st century culture, christians are everywhere today. 2000 years of historians, philosophers, poets, authors, musicians, and more have argued tirelessly against the premise of the christian god, and what has it accomplished? the story persists because it is something more than just a whimsical idea that satirically resembles a church in order to grant otherwise illegal privilege to someone.
Well, the idea persists for some. I for one feel that Christianity has been soundly and roundly shown to be untrue. i don't think it had passed the test of time, since most people don't really believe it. in fact, most Christians don't believe in many key points of the Christian religion (virgin birth, resurrection, Jesus was God, Satan exists, etc.) Very few people actually believe the whole story. The same can be said about all other beliefs. That doesn't make them right.
For example, Hinduism has been around longer.
However, if you want to argue there must be "something" to it. Sure, there is! Absolutely! There is something to it that makes it stick around. It's different for different people, but much of it is cultural, societal, familial, and it has some great pithy comments on many things.
As do all religions, even Spirituality.
2. The bible has a credibility to it that no modern book has: it was written by 40+ people (most of whom never met each other) over a few thousand years, and yet it still manages to compose a single story with a pretty dang clear message about god. while christians argue amongst themselves, and have expanded upon jewish religious principles, the doctrine was founded on the torah. musilm faith while also greatly adapted since its abrahamic roots, is none the less an offshoot of jewish law. combine the three, and you have an astronomical number of people worshipping hte same god, even if they disagree about who he is or what he wants. that lends itself to a little credibility to christianity over human spiritualism, no?
i absolutely disagree.
1. You have no idea how closely those 40 people describe god's message, since you don't know what God's message is, or if a God exists. Why can't I say that Hinduism best explains God's message?
What you are doing first deciding the Bible is true, then finding ways to explain why it is true. It doesn't work that way.
Plus, human spirituality (whatever that is, really) created the Bible. It made religion and religious texts. It is the same thing that created the idea of "something else".
There has been no greater thing than human imagination and creativity. Christianity is an example of this, as is Hinduism, Science, Art, Politics, etc. All of these are human constructs.
3. people or religion notwithstanding, the philosophy of jesus was sound. i believe living his model, even ignoring the faith component, results in a better happier, more fulfilled life. a non-theist might say that if that's so, it would be because it is psychologically sound philosophy. fine. after all, that's probably true. but i believe it's true because jesus philosophy, especially the faith component, is how god made us to live.
The philosophy of Jesus is not completely sound. Even you point out that Faith is more sound than the rest. (if it is all sound, one thing can't be MORE sound - that makes the others LESS sound).
While much of what Jesus said is nice, it is not a necessarily true or wise position. And it is woefully incomplete.
Robert G. ingersoll:
Is Christ Our Example?
HE never said a word in favor of education. He never even hinted at the existence of any science. He never uttered a word in favor of industry, economy or of any effort to better our condition in this world. He was the enemy of the successful, of the wealthy. Dives was sent to hell, not because he was bad, but because he was rich. Lazarus went to heaven, not because he was good, but because he was poor.
Christ cared nothing for painting, for sculpture, for music -- nothing for any art. He said nothing about the duties of nation to nation, of king to subject; nothing about the rights of man; nothing about intellectual liberty or the freedom of speech. He said nothing about the sacredness of home; not one word for the fireside; not a word in favor of marriage, in honor of maternity.
He never married. He wandered homeless from place to place with a few disciples. None of them seem to have been engaged in any useful business, and they seem to have lived on alms.
All human ties were held in contempt; this world was sacrificed for the next; all human effort was discouraged. God would support and protect.
At last, in the dusk of death, Christ, finding that he was mistaken, cried out: "My God My God! Why hast thou forsaken me?"
We have found that man must depend on himself. He must clear the land; he must build the home; he must plow and plant; he must invent; he must work with hand and brain; he must overcome the difficulties and obstructions; he must conquer and enslave the forces of nature to the end that they may do the work of the world.
it's like... you know how, if you modify your car to operate in a way the manufacturer didn't intend, you void the warranty? that's cause the manufacturer's know there is a good chance problems will arise as a result of operating a car in a way it was not designed to work. the same is true of us. we all operate under the premise of philosophies other than jesus', and the result is predictable... we frequently break down and have all sorts of problems. he doesn't want us to obey a bunch of arbitrary rules, he wants us to be what we were designed to be!
[insert onslaught of non-theist attacks here...]
one has to be honest with themselves, and discern if the adoption (when serious) of brand new theologies, is not little more than an attempt to design a theology to ease conscience while doing exactly what we please. there is no discipline involved, no work, no struggle- these are the things that forge valuable human characteristics.
ah, but i'm rambling. have a great week...
[end rant]
You too.
BTW, i might add that Christianity is exactly the religion you are warning of. It relaxed the requirements that Judaism had and only requires "Faith". While that may be hard work, it asks nothing else of you. No discipline, no work, no struggle - Just "Believe in the Lord!"
Read Ingersoll again and see what I mean. i find that Ingersoll has much more value than Jesus.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/ingerhb.htm
(See how I turned that around...) 
