Obama's apologies to the muslim community

[HappyTikiman]

In light of Obama's speech to the Muslim community I think we should have a little debate.

Intro
I live in middle Tennessee and the only talk show radio stations we have is a heavy republican oriented talk radio, and national public radio. NPR was playing the usual classical music, but its not very good while doing hard labour. On the other station. Phil Valentine, local republican talk show hero, had managed to get pretty heated about Obama's recent speech. He did mention some points that I would like to present to this forum.

Questions

1. Is the United States going to become a Muslim dominated country?

2. Will Obama's apologies be accepted by the Muslim community?

3. Should the nation worry about its president's new apologetic direction?

4. Would this help or hender the United States relations with the world community?

Debate Material

Obama's speech, scroll down on the webpage

[Furrowed Brow]

Yes, like when we liberated Europe. I'm sure that angered the Nazis, just as our actions against radical Islam anger the Jihadists.

Liberating Europe was fine work. Okay we had to wait a couple of years longer than necessary and it was the Allies together that liberated Europe, but still fine work by the US.

However I think it was Harold McMillan tongue in cheek (could have got wrong politician) who observed that De Gaulle could forgive the Germans for invading France but could never forgive Britain and the US for liberating them. De Gaulle did every thing in his power to present Britain entering the Common Market (the early days of the European Union), and France did not join Nato, and down the decades have been very sniffy towards the US. So as I say dont expect thanks.

It wouldn't cause me to strap on a suicide bomb.

Nor me. I have no faith.

Yes, so what? We also waged the Cold War after supporting Stalin.

The cold war involved messing around in the internal politics of Africa and the middle east. The present Iranian theocracy is a direct consequence of that cold war and the US putting the Shah on the Iranian throne. Saddam Hussein gambled that given previous US support to his regime they would not intervene in Kuwait. The single most important issues the US support for Israel. All these policies may be fully justified or not, but once you are in the business as King and nation maker, expect no thanks, expect backlash, and it is a mistake to turn a blind eye to the US authorship that has helped mold the "other".

There were 100,000,000 victims of Communism last century.

That figure include deaths within the Soviet Union and China. It includes mass starvations. An estimated 40,000,000 deaths are Chinese under chairman Moa, 7,000,000 in the Ukraine starved under Stalin. Okay only 10,000,000 died in the Nazi concentration camps. I did not say an authoritarian communist system was better than an authoritarian right wing system, or that the US do not have reasons to feel justified in their foreign policy. But how about answering the question straight.

It seems that what the US really had was a firebreak policy. You burn some ground to stop a bigger fire getting through. Maybe it all was absolutely necessary. Just dont expect thanks from those who see the world different to the US, and those closer to the fire who choked on the smoke.

I think they're too insignificant to be a force for good or bad.

That was kind of my point. The US are clearly a significant force. They can never be a Maldives. Even if you returned to the insular politics of the early twentieth century you are just too significant economic force. Your influence is felt all over the world. So it might be conducive to better international relationships if the US manages to rid itself of that us n them mentality. Something Obama seems to understand.

[I AM ALL I AM]

He didn't seem too apologetic. We shouldn't think that owning up to one's mistakes if "bad," that's a bit arrogant. He acknowledged the mistakes on both sides, and pressed the issue that me must not go back in history, but we have to look back in history to move forward.

I am Muslim and of all the Muslims that I've spoken with, they were pleased with his speech.

His attempted moral equivalency (mistakes on 'both sides') was ludicrous. Where is the US counter action to 9/11 or the thousands of other crimes by the Islamofascists?

G'day East of Eden.

What proof do you have that "Islamofascists" perpetrated 9/11 ?

What else do you call Al-Queda and the Taliban?

G'day East of Eden.

So you have no proof then. Thank you for answering my question.

[East of Eden]

Before replying to the rest of the post from which this is from, can I ask East of Eden to clarify the difference between a totalitarian regime and and authoritarian regime?

From Wikipedia:

Difference between authoritarian and totalitarian states
According to Karl Loewenstein, "the term 'Authoritarian' denotes a political organization in which the single power holder - an individual person or 'dictator', an assembly, a committee, a junta, or a party - monopolizes political power. The term 'Authoritarian' refers rather to the structure of government than to the structure of society. An Authoritarian regime confines itself to political control of the state.

"The governmental techniques of a totalitarian regime are necessarily Authoritarian. But a totalitarian regime does much more. It attempts to mold the private life, soul, and morals of citizens to a dominant ideology. The officially proclaimed ideology penetrates into every nook and cranny of society; its ambition is total.

"Totalitarian regimes seek to destroy civil society i.e. communities that operate independently of the State. Neither the Italian fascists nor the Nazis completely 'destroyed their respective social structures', and so these countries 'could rapidly return to normalcy' after defeat in World War II. In contrast, attempts to reform the regime in the USSR 'led to nowhere because every non-governmental institution, whether social or economic, had to be built from scratch. The result was neither reform of Communism nor establishment of democracy, but a progressive breakdown of organized life'".[2]

I do not recall that Pinochet's regime was developing into a democracy any faster than Castro's before he was removed, but again, I will check.

Chile is a democracy today, Cuba is not.

[East of Eden]

He didn't seem too apologetic. We shouldn't think that owning up to one's mistakes if "bad," that's a bit arrogant. He acknowledged the mistakes on both sides, and pressed the issue that me must not go back in history, but we have to look back in history to move forward.

I am Muslim and of all the Muslims that I've spoken with, they were pleased with his speech.

His attempted moral equivalency (mistakes on 'both sides') was ludicrous. Where is the US counter action to 9/11 or the thousands of other crimes by the Islamofascists?

G'day East of Eden.

What proof do you have that "Islamofascists" perpetrated 9/11 ?

What else do you call Al-Queda and the Taliban?

G'day East of Eden.

So you have no proof then. Thank you for answering my question.

So who do you think was behind 9/11 - George Bush?

[I AM ALL I AM]

He didn't seem too apologetic. We shouldn't think that owning up to one's mistakes if "bad," that's a bit arrogant. He acknowledged the mistakes on both sides, and pressed the issue that me must not go back in history, but we have to look back in history to move forward.

I am Muslim and of all the Muslims that I've spoken with, they were pleased with his speech.

His attempted moral equivalency (mistakes on 'both sides') was ludicrous. Where is the US counter action to 9/11 or the thousands of other crimes by the Islamofascists?

G'day East of Eden.

What proof do you have that "Islamofascists" perpetrated 9/11 ?

What else do you call Al-Queda and the Taliban?

G'day East of Eden.

So you have no proof then. Thank you for answering my question.

So who do you think was behind 9/11 - George Bush?

G'day East of Eden.

George Bush is a puppet that was controlled by other interests (and more than likely still is). He was hardly "behind 9/11".

No matter who was actually "behind 9/11", it is obvious that it was used to blame those that you have labelled "Islamofascists". Your use of this term shows how easily the 'official story' has influenced your thoughts about the event and fuelled your emotional responses to it.

A little research about the event and the evidence presented in the 'official story' will show you another picture, that while it may not sit comfortably with your view of "Islamofascists", at least will give you an understanding of how you have been manipulated to believe the lie that the 'official story' is.

As you appear to wish to discuss this issue, once again I will ask you, what evidence do you have that 9/11 was perpetrated by "Islamofascists" ?

Is it merely your opinion based upon the 'official story' ?

Or is there some corroborating evidence that you have that will vindicate your stance that it was "Islamofascists" ?

If you do not have any evidence that 9/11 was perpetrated by "Islamofascists", is your use of this term driven by your hatred of others that have differing beliefs than your own ?

Or, by using the term "Islamofascists", are you attempting to alienate those that you have so labelled to create an 'us and them' scenario to justify the killing of those that have differing beliefs than your own ?

[East of Eden]

George Bush is a puppet that was controlled by other interests (and more than likely still is).

Where is your evidence of this?

No matter who was actually "behind 9/11", it is obvious that it was used to blame those that you have labelled "Islamofascists". Your use of this term shows how easily the 'official story' has influenced your thoughts about the event and fuelled your emotional responses to it.

A little research about the event and the evidence presented in the 'official story' will show you another picture, that while it may not sit comfortably with your view of "Islamofascists", at least will give you an understanding of how you have been manipulated to believe the lie that the 'official story' is.

So what is the other picture you are privy too? Rather than 'official story', I prefer the term 'facts'.

As you appear to wish to discuss this issue, once again I will ask you, what evidence do you have that 9/11 was perpetrated by "Islamofascists" ?

Is it merely your opinion based upon the 'official story' ?

Or is there some corroborating evidence that you have that will vindicate your stance that it was "Islamofascists" ?

If you do not have any evidence that 9/11 was perpetrated by "Islamofascists", is your use of this term driven by your hatred of others that have differing beliefs than your own ?

Here is a definition of Facsicm that fits the criminals behind 9/11 perfectly:

"Robert O. Paxton wrote that fascism is:

a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.[26]"

Radical Islam is as much an expansionary repressive political system as it is a religion.

Or, by using the term "Islamofascists", are you attempting to alienate those that you have so labelled to create an 'us and them' scenario to justify the killing of those that have differing beliefs than your own ?[/b][/color]

Why would I want to kill those of different beliefs? I'm a Christian, not a Muslim or atheistic Communist.

[I AM ALL I AM]

G'day East of Eden.

George Bush is a puppet that was controlled by other interests (and more than likely still is).

Where is your evidence of this?

AIPAC, including other lobby groups control the funding of presidential candidates. They do so BECAUSE they get a 'pay off'. In other words, the president does their bidding.

The Federal Reserve is a privately owned banking organisation that controls the issuing of money in the U.S.A., which in turn controls the financial market. Through the controlling of the finances of a country, those in control have the power to influence all aspects of the country, from the individual to the president.

No matter who was actually "behind 9/11", it is obvious that it was used to blame those that you have labelled "Islamofascists". Your use of this term shows how easily the 'official story' has influenced your thoughts about the event and fuelled your emotional responses to it.

A little research about the event and the evidence presented in the 'official story' will show you another picture, that while it may not sit comfortably with your view of "Islamofascists", at least will give you an understanding of how you have been manipulated to believe the lie that the 'official story' is.

So what is the other picture you are privy too? Rather than 'official story', I prefer the term 'facts'.

Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

http://www.ae911truth.org/

There are also plenty of more websites that you can google to find alternative views that completely debunk the 'official story'.

As you appear to wish to discuss this issue, once again I will ask you, what evidence do you have that 9/11 was perpetrated by "Islamofascists" ?

Is it merely your opinion based upon the 'official story' ?

Or is there some corroborating evidence that you have that will vindicate your stance that it was "Islamofascists" ?

If you do not have any evidence that 9/11 was perpetrated by "Islamofascists", is your use of this term driven by your hatred of others that have differing beliefs than your own ?

Here is a definition of Facsicm that fits the criminals behind 9/11 perfectly:

"Robert O. Paxton wrote that fascism is:

a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.[26]"

Radical Islam is as much an expansionary repressive political system as it is a religion.

The same can be said of 'radical christianity'.

Do you have any evidence of who "the criminals behind 9/11" actually are ?

Or, by using the term "Islamofascists", are you attempting to alienate those that you have so labelled to create an 'us and them' scenario to justify the killing of those that have differing beliefs than your own ?[/b][/color]

Why would I want to kill those of different beliefs? I'm a Christian, not a Muslim or atheistic Communist.

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Exodus 22:20
You must kill those who worship another god.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own.

Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you.

Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own.

Being a christian, you follow the christian doctrine, which, as shown with the above quotes, is as intolerant of other religions and those that do not follow the christian religion as the beliefs of others you accuse of being fascists.


Now, for a third time in a post, I will ask you what evidence do you have that 9/11 was perpetrated by "Islamofascists" ?

Would you please supply the evidence that you have that corroborates your statement.

[East of Eden]

AIPAC, including other lobby groups control the funding of presidential candidates. They do so BECAUSE they get a 'pay off'. In other words, the president does their bidding.

The Federal Reserve is a privately owned banking organisation that controls the issuing of money in the U.S.A., which in turn controls the financial market. Through the controlling of the finances of a country, those in control have the power to influence all aspects of the country, from the individual to the president.[/color]

If you're saying any presidential candidate is part of the Establishment, I would agree with that.

Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

http://www.ae911truth.org/

There are also plenty of more websites that you can google to find alternative views that completely debunk the 'official story'.

I'm aware of this theory, and consider these groups fringe nutcases not worthy to be taken seriously. BTW, who do they think was behind 9/11?

The same can be said of 'radical christianity'.

If you had examples of Christian repressive governments a la the Taliban, you might have a point.

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Probably a reference to Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70. The punishment of those who rebelled and actively opposed the king (verse 14) was much more severe than that of the negligent servant.

Exodus 22:20
You must kill those who worship another god.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own.

Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you.

Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own.

Being a christian, you follow the christian doctrine, which, as shown with the above quotes, is as intolerant of other religions and those that do not follow the christian religion as the beliefs of others you accuse of being fascists.

It might apply to me were I a bronze-age member of the theocracy of Israel. Those commandments were to preserve the nation of Isael as the chosen vehicle for the Savior of Mankind, Jesus Christ. lFunny if that applies to Christians none of them are doing that today. I guess Mother Teresa had it all backwards, huh? The only thing you're demonstating here is your cluelessness of 'the Christian doctrine'. BTW, 'Christian' is normally capitalized.

Now, for a third time in a post, I will ask you what evidence do you have that 9/11 was perpetrated by "Islamofascists" ?

From Wikipedia:

Attackers and their motivation

Within hours of the attacks, the FBI was able to determine the names and in many cases the personal details of the suspected pilots and hijackers.[73][74] Mohamed Atta's luggage, which did not make the connection from his Portland flight onto Flight 11, contained papers that revealed the identity of all 19 hijackers (all men), and other important clues about their plans, motives, and backgrounds.[75] On the day of the attacks, the National Security Agency intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden, as did German intelligence agencies.[76][77] On September 27, 2001, the FBI released photos of the 19 hijackers, along with information about the possible nationalities and aliases of many.[78] Fifteen of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt, and one from Lebanon.[79] Mohamed Atta was the ringleader of the 19 hijackers.[80] The hijackers were well-educated, mature adults, whose belief systems were fully formed.[81]

The FBI investigation into the attacks, code named operation PENTTBOM, was the largest and most complex investigation in the history of the FBI, involving over 7,000 special agents.[82] Through interrogations of USS Cole bombing suspects in Yemen, the FBI was able to link the hijackers to al-Qaeda.[83] The United States government determined that al-Qaeda, headed by Osama bin Laden, bore responsibility for the attacks, with the FBI stating "evidence linking al-Qaeda and bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable".[84] The Government of the United Kingdom reached the same conclusion regarding al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden's culpability for the September 11 attacks.[85]

[MagusYanam]

Let's not get sloppy in our definitions here.

Here is a definition of Facsicm that fits the criminals behind 9/11 perfectly:

"Robert O. Paxton wrote that fascism is:

a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.[26]"

This definition of fascism, though adequate, does not exactly fit the 9/11 hijackers. Islamic fundamentalism is 'obsessively preoccupied with decline, humiliation and victimhood' and does pursue 'cults of unity, energy and purity', and they are undeniably militant - however, Islamic fundamentalism is not a mass-based party, they are not nationalists by any stretch of the imagination (indeed, they decry nationalism as one of the outside influences weakening Islamic cultural unity). Islamic fundamentalism has a number of parallels in fascism, but calling it fascism is historically inappropriate.

If you had examples of Christian repressive governments a la the Taliban, you might have a point.

The classic examples of repressive Christian states would by Fascist Italy, Vichy France and Falangist Spain. All espoused, to various degrees, ideologies of actual clerical fascism or various brands of nationalist Christianity - and they had no problem brutalising or killing people they didn't like. Going back a bit further into the 19th century, the CSA is also an example - a country based on a vicious formal slave system based in supposedly Christian beliefs.

[JoeyKnothead]

As you appear to wish to discuss this issue, once again I will ask you, what evidence do you have that 9/11 was perpetrated by "Islamofascists" ?

Bin Laden "confession" video on youtube