Hope and faith

[FinalEnigma]

Apologies for jumping on a new member, but this was posted in another thread

Hope and Faith are irrelevant.

Questions for debate;

1)Is hope irrelevant?
2)Is faith irrelevant?


My answer to 1 would be a most emphatic no.

Beyond the obvious extremely significant effects of positive thinking upon negative situations (such as cancer patients who have hope VS those who are pessimistically waiting to die.), there are many, many other reasons why hope is important. If nobody had hope, they would never try to change negative situations, because they would have no hope that they would succeed. people would never fight overwhelming odds, depressed people would commit mass suicide, and all seriously ill patients would as well, since they do not have hope.

Hope can give a person strength they wouldn't otherwise have to fight for something that is important.


regarding number two: What kind of faith? You cannot rule out all faith as irrelevant. theistic faith you could try, but you would still have a problem.

[ConfinedIX]

Apologies for jumping on a new member, but this was posted in another thread

Hope and Faith are irrelevant.

Questions for debate;

1)Is hope irrelevant?
2)Is faith irrelevant?


My answer to 1 would be a most emphatic no.

Beyond the obvious extremely significant effects of positive thinking upon negative situations (such as cancer patients who have hope VS those who are pessimistically waiting to die.), there are many, many other reasons why hope is important. If nobody had hope, they would never try to change negative situations, because they would have no hope that they would succeed. people would never fight overwhelming odds, depressed people would commit mass suicide, and all seriously ill patients would as well, since they do not have hope.

Hope can give a person strength they wouldn't otherwise have to fight for something that is important.


regarding number two: What kind of faith? You cannot rule out all faith as irrelevant. theistic faith you could try, but you would still have a problem.

Rank in order of importance: Knowledge, Critical thinking, Belief; Hope and Faith are irrelevant.

I suppose I should clarify what I said. When I saw that I should rank those above in order of importance I thought 'order of importance to myself.' Thus why I said Hope and Faith are irrelevant.

Hope - the feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best

Faith - confidence or trust in a person or thing, belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion.

So let me clarify. Hope to me is irrelevant because no matter how much you can hope it will not change the outcome of anything, thus to place my trust in hope is a waste of my time.

Faith; religious faith to me is irrelevant, however I still do not put my faith (confidence or trust in a person or thing) into many people.

So to answer your questions; Others may find Hope and Faith relevant however, it is not so with myself.

[McCulloch]

1)Is hope irrelevant?

In the context of determining truth, hope is worse than irrelevant. It can be downright misleading. You will look for evidence to confirm what you hope is true rather than seek actual truth.

2)Is faith irrelevant?

If faith means believing something with a degree of certainty that is not warranted by the available evidence, then faith is irrelevant to the determination of truth. Again, it could be harmful.

[realthinker]

Apologies for jumping on a new member, but this was posted in another thread

Hope and Faith are irrelevant.

Questions for debate;

1)Is hope irrelevant?
2)Is faith irrelevant?


My answer to 1 would be a most emphatic no.

Beyond the obvious extremely significant effects of positive thinking upon negative situations (such as cancer patients who have hope VS those who are pessimistically waiting to die.), there are many, many other reasons why hope is important. If nobody had hope, they would never try to change negative situations, because they would have no hope that they would succeed. people would never fight overwhelming odds, depressed people would commit mass suicide, and all seriously ill patients would as well, since they do not have hope.

Hope can give a person strength they wouldn't otherwise have to fight for something that is important.


regarding number two: What kind of faith? You cannot rule out all faith as irrelevant. theistic faith you could try, but you would still have a problem.

relâ‹…eâ‹…vant
  /ˈrɛləvənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rel-uh-vuhnt] Show IPA
Use relevant in a Sentence
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–adjective
bearing upon or connected with the matter in hand; pertinent: a relevant remark.

Relevance must have a context. To what do you suggest hope and faith are relevant?

They are perhaps relevant to one's sense of personal satisfaction with life, but they are not relevant to the actual events that may occur in one's life. Hope and faith are akin to superstition.

[Homicidal_Cherry53]

To reiterate a point realthinker made, what are you asking that they are relevant to? They are very relevant to the decisions and actions of the average person, but they are (obviously) completely irrelevant to anything not involving humans, as well as anything that is out of humanity's control. In the grand scheme of things, I would consider hope and faith irrelevant. No matter how much we hope, we won't stop the universe from experiencing heat death (provided that is actually what is going to happen) or the sun dying.

[FinalEnigma]

To all the people who, somehow, confusingly, said that hope and faith are irrelevant, I pose a scenario(though I admit, mcculloch is correct that hope and faith do not help you determine truth)

You go hiking in the woods alone, and you do this every saturday. all your friends know that you do this.

Would it be irrelevant or detrimental to have hope of returning safely? if you have no hope of returning safely, you will behave in a detrimental manner. If you have no faith in rescue searchers, you will wander aimlessly trying to find your own way home, and get even further lost, making their job harder.

and to use my previous example. Are you all seriously claiming that hope is irrelevant to an injured or ill person? That it does not matter whether or not they have hope? There have been numerous studies that show that positive thinking, hope, has a tremendous impact on your recovery from injury and illness.

ConfinedIX, you said that hope will not change the outcome of anything. Can you show that hope has no effect on injured or ill persons? Can you show that hope, and therefore morale, has no effect on armies?

And homiciadal, I am asking if they are relevant to anything, since the original statement implied they are not.

[ConfinedIX]

To all the people who, somehow, confusingly, said that hope and faith are irrelevant, I pose a scenario(though I admit, mcculloch is correct that hope and faith do not help you determine truth)

You go hiking in the woods alone, and you do this every saturday. all your friends know that you do this.

Would it be irrelevant or detrimental to have hope of returning safely? if you have no hope of returning safely, you will behave in a detrimental manner. If you have no faith in rescue searchers, you will wander aimlessly trying to find your own way home, and get even further lost, making their job harder.

and to use my previous example. Are you all seriously claiming that hope is irrelevant to an injured or ill person? That it does not matter whether or not they have hope? There have been numerous studies that show that positive thinking, hope, has a tremendous impact on your recovery from injury and illness.

ConfinedIX, you said that hope will not change the outcome of anything. Can you show that hope has no effect on injured or ill persons? Can you show that hope, and therefore morale, has no effect on armies?

And homiciadal, I am asking if they are relevant to anything, since the original statement implied they are not.

Hope to me is irrelevant because no matter how much you can hope it will not change the outcome of anything, thus to place my trust in hope is a waste of my time.

Read the above. For me Hope is completely irrelevant. Example: This summer I applied for a job at my friend's Dad's work, however after I put my application in they lost 1/3 of their business a week later, thus I was not hired. Hope could not have done anything about it.

Can you show that hope has no effect on injured or ill persons? Can you show that hope, and therefore morale, has no effect on armies?

The human mind is a powerful tool. Lets set up an example. Lets say we have Person X and Person Y, who from here on will be referred to as PX or PY. Let us say PX sneezes next to PY, however the sneeze from PX does not hit PY. If PY believes that they can get sick from PX's sneeze then their mind can trick their body into believing that they are sick, in which case PY's antibodies attack it's own healthy immune system.

To answer the questions you have placed before me. I cannot show that hope has no effect on injured or ill person(s) and also cannot show that hope/morale has no effect on armies, however I also make no claim that it does not.

There have been numerous studies that show that positive thinking, hope, has a tremendous impact on your recovery from injury and illness.

There is a difference between positive thinking and hope. I will use myself and my current situation as an example.

Friday afternoon I had a growth on my middle finger on my right hand sliced off and singed. After, I went down to their pharmacy to get my medication: Cephalexin, an antibiotic pill(s) and Hydrocodone, a pain pill(s).

1. I know that Cephalexin will make it so that the area sliced and singed will not become infected and I know that Hydrocodone will help me ignore the pain of the area being sliced off and singed.

2. I hope that Cephalexin will make it so that the area sliced and singed will not become infected and I hope that Hydrocodone will help me ignore the pain of the area being sliced off and singed.

I am with #1. I know that the medication prescribed to me will work and if it doesn't I just go back to my doctor, explain the situation and they prescribe something new.

You go hiking in the woods alone, and you do this every saturday. all your friends know that you do this.

Would it be irrelevant or detrimental to have hope of returning safely? if you have no hope of returning safely, you will behave in a detrimental manner. If you have no faith in rescue searchers, you will wander aimlessly trying to find your own way home, and get even further lost, making their job harder.

Once again I must state that for myself Hope and Faith are irrelevant, however for others they may work and they may/can have their owns beliefs on Hope and Faith. If I were to go hiking in the woods I assume that I am going to return safely; I do not hope.

Are you making the claim that to have no Hope or Faith is to be detrimental (harmful) to yourself or your surroundings (people, objects, ect.)?

[realthinker]

To all the people who, somehow, confusingly, said that hope and faith are irrelevant, I pose a scenario(though I admit, mcculloch is correct that hope and faith do not help you determine truth)

You go hiking in the woods alone, and you do this every saturday. all your friends know that you do this.

Would it be irrelevant or detrimental to have hope of returning safely? if you have no hope of returning safely, you will behave in a detrimental manner. If you have no faith in rescue searchers, you will wander aimlessly trying to find your own way home, and get even further lost, making their job harder.

and to use my previous example. Are you all seriously claiming that hope is irrelevant to an injured or ill person? That it does not matter whether or not they have hope? There have been numerous studies that show that positive thinking, hope, has a tremendous impact on your recovery from injury and illness.

ConfinedIX, you said that hope will not change the outcome of anything. Can you show that hope has no effect on injured or ill persons? Can you show that hope, and therefore morale, has no effect on armies?

And homiciadal, I am asking if they are relevant to anything, since the original statement implied they are not.

The need for hope is offset by understanding. I understand that if I behave in a responsible manner, anything untoward that happens to me is something out of my control anyway.

If I'm going out hiking, I'll have researched the route and anticipated the potential dangers. I'll have enumerated those dangers and understood their probability. I'll have proper equipment. I'll have trained myself for the types of difficulty that could occur.

It's the same for every day life. Stumbling blindly through it and expecting a particular outcome is silly. Hope and faith won't change one's fortunes. Understanding and preparation and eventually proper execution set one's fortune. Better to study and learn than pray and hope.

[FinalEnigma]

Okay, confined. So you admit that hope is relevant to other people, but not to yourself?

I will admit that hoping for something will not change the outcome, but having hope will most certainly do so. Human beings are emotional creatures. You are a human being too.

When you say that hope does not affect you, it leads me to ask what if you were sick with a serious illness in the hospital? Can you tell me that if you personally did not believe you would survive, that it would not affect you in any way? or that if you did have hope, your recovery would be equivalent to if you did not?

Is it your position that you are above the need for hope for morale/any other effects on you?

I understand that hoping for something will change nothing, but having hope will. I daresay that this is universally true of human beings.

The need for hope is offset by understanding. I understand that if I behave in a responsible manner, anything untoward that happens to me is something out of my control anyway.

In many situations yes, but that's not what I mean. There's a difference between hoping for something and having hope. See examples above.

[realthinker]

Okay, confined. So you admit that hope is relevant to other people, but not to yourself?

I will admit that hoping for something will not change the outcome, but having hope will most certainly do so. Human beings are emotional creatures. You are a human being too.

When you say that hope does not affect you, it leads me to ask what if you were sick with a serious illness in the hospital? Can you tell me that if you personally did not believe you would survive, that it would not affect you in any way? or that if you did have hope, your recovery would be equivalent to if you did not?

Is it your position that you are above the need for hope for morale/any other effects on you?

I understand that hoping for something will change nothing, but having hope will. I daresay that this is universally true of human beings.

The need for hope is offset by understanding. I understand that if I behave in a responsible manner, anything untoward that happens to me is something out of my control anyway.

In many situations yes, but that's not what I mean. There's a difference between hoping for something and having hope. See examples above.

On the contrary, I believe it is applicable in every situation. The need for hope is a tacit admission that one is ignorant of the situation to a degree that they cannot anticipate the outcome and that they are powerless to help themselves.

Religion feeds that ignorance and sense of powerlessness. It needs it to remain a viable social phenomenon.