I get a sense from the Jewish members that there's a lot of arguing with God. This is a bit contradictory to my Christian based or biased understanding of praising God at every opportunity, and I was just wondering if some would comment on this.
I know it's been touched on before, but I'm thinking folks who get the same sense I do may benefit from coming across a topic specifically for the subject.
Arguing with or Praising God
Moderator: Moderators
- JoeyKnothead
- Banned
- Posts: 20879
- Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
- Location: Here
- Has thanked: 4093 times
- Been thanked: 2572 times
Post #11
Maybe through arguing with God we learn through him about ourselves. The submissiveness that never doubts, never asks, never cares how I feel in all those situations in life is it really pious and is it honest? The idea that Christians- or anyone- should not speak to God what is in their hearts and minds seems to lead nowhere.
- JoeyKnothead
- Banned
- Posts: 20879
- Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
- Location: Here
- Has thanked: 4093 times
- Been thanked: 2572 times
Post #12
That's what I find so intriguing in the Jewish religion. Where I consider some of God's acts to be quite abhorrent, I would think I had a duty to hop up and holler about it.Lioba wrote:Maybe through arguing with God we learn through him about ourselves. The submissiveness that never doubts, never asks, never cares how I feel in all those situations in life is it really pious and is it honest? The idea that Christians- or anyone- should not speak to God what is in their hearts and minds seems to lead nowhere.
Of course I'd also have to realize that maybe "God's ways are not our ways" or some such, but the requirement to live by my best moral understanding, maybe independent of God's opinion, is to me a profound religious philosophy.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
-Punkinhead Martin
Post #13
This poem is in the High Holy Day prayerbook (or at least the one used by many Conservative synagogues). I think it speaks to the topic:
IF YOU LOOK AT THE STARS
Praise me, says God, and I will know that you love Me.
Curse me, says God, and I will know that you love Me.
Praise Me or curse Me,
And I will know that you love Me.
Sing out My graces, says God.
Raise your fist against me and revile, says God.
Sing out graces or revile,
Reviling is also a kind of praise, says God.
But if you sit fenced off in your apathy, says God,
If you sit entrenched in, "I don't give a hang," says God,
If you look at the stars and yawn,
If you see suffering and don't cry out,
If you don't praise and you don't revile,
Then I created you in vain, says God.
~Aaron Zeitlin
IF YOU LOOK AT THE STARS
Praise me, says God, and I will know that you love Me.
Curse me, says God, and I will know that you love Me.
Praise Me or curse Me,
And I will know that you love Me.
Sing out My graces, says God.
Raise your fist against me and revile, says God.
Sing out graces or revile,
Reviling is also a kind of praise, says God.
But if you sit fenced off in your apathy, says God,
If you sit entrenched in, "I don't give a hang," says God,
If you look at the stars and yawn,
If you see suffering and don't cry out,
If you don't praise and you don't revile,
Then I created you in vain, says God.
~Aaron Zeitlin
- JoeyKnothead
- Banned
- Posts: 20879
- Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
- Location: Here
- Has thanked: 4093 times
- Been thanked: 2572 times
Post #14
I can dig it. Seems God is concerned with folks knowing Him, whether they like Him or not. By knowing Him, they gotta deal with Him.Jrosemary wrote:This poem is in the High Holy Day prayerbook (or at least the one used by many Conservative synagogues). I think it speaks to the topic:
IF YOU LOOK AT THE STARS
Praise me, says God, and I will know that you love Me.
Curse me, says God, and I will know that you love Me.
Praise Me or curse Me,
And I will know that you love Me.
Sing out My graces, says God.
Raise your fist against me and revile, says God.
Sing out graces or revile,
Reviling is also a kind of praise, says God.
But if you sit fenced off in your apathy, says God,
If you sit entrenched in, "I don't give a hang," says God,
If you look at the stars and yawn,
If you see suffering and don't cry out,
If you don't praise and you don't revile,
Then I created you in vain, says God.
~Aaron Zeitlin
If they deal with Him, they must confront moral issues. If they confront moral issues, they gotta confront their own morality. Clever feller, your God.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
-Punkinhead Martin
-
- Apprentice
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:57 am
Post #15
The trouble with agruing with God is that he never replies in a way that's easy to understand. His replies always look like stuff that could have happened anyway.
Post #16
When you wrestle with God, there's no guarantee of an answer. There's no guarantee that God even exists. I don't know if He does or doesn't, but I do know that in studying the Torah--even the parts that horrify us--and in prayer (both angry prayer and praise) the Jewish people have been confronting questions of meaning, questions of morality and facing up to our mortality for millenia.Tiberius47 wrote:The trouble with agruing with God is that he never replies in a way that's easy to understand. His replies always look like stuff that could have happened anyway.
As the poem points out, what's important is that you never look at the stars and yawn--that you never become indifferent to suffering. You don't have to be religious to retain your wonder when you stare up at the night sky or to do your part to ease the suffering in the world. However, for those drawn to religion, it's a powerful tool of mindfulness: liturgy is designed to wake us up; studying Scripture helps us ask the deep questions--including the question of God's existence.
Not all religious folk are theists--I identify, technically speaking, as an agnostic. But that doesn't stop me from wrestling with the God who may or may not exist!
- Cathar1950
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 10503
- Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:12 pm
- Location: Michigan(616)
- Been thanked: 2 times
Post #17
One of my favorite stories is about Jacob and Esau where Jacob is thinking his brother is going to kill him and when he meats him he says that when he sees his face he sees the face of God after the weep and hug.
What makes this even more interesting is before this he wrestles with God and says he saw God and lived.
The other one I like is where Abraham is trying to talk God into not destroying Sodom he goes from saving them for the sake of 50 to 10. Or as Peter Griffin say "He was trying to Us(Jew) Him(God) down.
I remember my son asked me if that was where the the Jews got the reputation and I said maybe but it was most likely from Christian practices.
What makes this even more interesting is before this he wrestles with God and says he saw God and lived.
The other one I like is where Abraham is trying to talk God into not destroying Sodom he goes from saving them for the sake of 50 to 10. Or as Peter Griffin say "He was trying to Us(Jew) Him(God) down.
I remember my son asked me if that was where the the Jews got the reputation and I said maybe but it was most likely from Christian practices.