Organelles are cellular compartments with a specific function. Mitochondria are organelles that specialize in "burning" nutrients to produce chemical energy. Mitochondria are descendants of bacteria, and they contain their own DNA. When a sperm fertilizes an egg, the sperm's mitochondria are destroyed, leaving only the mitochondria from the egg.Therefore, all of your mitochondria come from your mother, and mitochondrial DNA can be used to establish matrilinear descent over very long periods.
Mitrochondrial DNA studies have shown that the Jewish gene pool is largely of Middle-Eastern origin, and also that half of the Ashkenazi Jews are the descendants of only four women.
Now I have two questions:
- Would mitochondrial DNA research be accepted as evidence that someone is Jewish?
- If so, what about Palestinians? What if they turn out to be mostly of Twelve Tribes Israelite descent? Would that make them Jewish? Could they invoke the Right of Return?
Mitochondrial DNA to establish matrilinear descent
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Mitochondrial DNA to establish matrilinear descent
Post #1The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings.
The nakedness of woman is the work of God.
Listen to the fool''''s reproach! it is a kingly title!
As the caterpiller chooses the fairest leaves to lay her eggs on, so the priest lays his curse on the fairest joys.
William Blake - The Marriage of Heaven and Hell
No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings.
The nakedness of woman is the work of God.
Listen to the fool''''s reproach! it is a kingly title!
As the caterpiller chooses the fairest leaves to lay her eggs on, so the priest lays his curse on the fairest joys.
William Blake - The Marriage of Heaven and Hell
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Post #11
What you will or will not do has no relevance to this thread or the accuracy of my comment.Sjoerd wrote:If a group of persons identifies themselves as a people, I won't deny that they are a people.Jayhawker Soule wrote:Palestine was a place. Israel was a people.Sjoerd wrote:So, halachically, many Palestinians are Jews, ...
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Re: Mitochondrial DNA to establish matrilinear descent
Post #12Thank you for the quote.Sjoerd wrote:Jayhawker Soule wrote: Actually, it was about 40%. And there is no indication that any or all of them were Israelites.Behar et al., 'The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event', The American Journal of Human Genetics 78 (3): 487–97. wrote: ..Both the extent and location of the maternal ancestral deme from which the Ashkenazi Jewry arose remain obscure. Here, using complete sequences of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we show that close to one-half of Ashkenazi Jews, estimated at 8,000,000 people, can be traced back to only four women carrying distinct mtDNAs that are virtually absent in other populations, with the important exception of low frequencies among non-Ashkenazi Jews. We conclude that four founding mtDNAs, likely of Near Eastern ancestry, underwent major expansion(s) in Europe within the past millennium..
Post #13
Sorry if I misread your comment. As I read it, it implies that you deny that the Palestinians are a people. I responded that I don't see any reason to deny to a self-identifying people the status of "people". I could be wrong in the sense that Palestinians might identify themselves as Jordanians, Egyptians or just plain Arabs instead of as Palestinians, but I don't think so.Jayhawker Soule wrote:What you will or will not do has no relevance to this thread or the accuracy of my comment.Sjoerd wrote:If a group of persons identifies themselves as a people, I won't deny that they are a people.Jayhawker Soule wrote:Palestine was a place. Israel was a people.Sjoerd wrote:So, halachically, many Palestinians are Jews, ...
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings.
The nakedness of woman is the work of God.
Listen to the fool''''s reproach! it is a kingly title!
As the caterpiller chooses the fairest leaves to lay her eggs on, so the priest lays his curse on the fairest joys.
William Blake - The Marriage of Heaven and Hell
No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings.
The nakedness of woman is the work of God.
Listen to the fool''''s reproach! it is a kingly title!
As the caterpiller chooses the fairest leaves to lay her eggs on, so the priest lays his curse on the fairest joys.
William Blake - The Marriage of Heaven and Hell
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Post #14
As opposed to ...? "Palestinian" as currently employed is a post-Mandate propaganda construct. Before that time it referred to the people living in Israel and beyond -- all the people.Sjoerd wrote:Sorry if I misread your comment. As I read it, it implies that you deny that the Palestinians are a people.Jayhawker Soule wrote:What you will or will not do has no relevance to this thread or the accuracy of my comment.Sjoerd wrote:If a group of persons identifies themselves as a people, I won't deny that they are a people.Jayhawker Soule wrote:Palestine was a place. Israel was a people.Sjoerd wrote:So, halachically, many Palestinians are Jews, ...
You claim: "halachically, many Palestinians are Jews". Based on what evidence? Based on what definition of 'Palestinian'?
Post #15
I agree with Jay that the Palestinian people, as we know them today, is a post-Mandate construction. It was really Arafat, as far as I can see, that molded them into a people. But just because they're a recent people doesn't mean they're not a people.
Meanwhile, I'd be surprised to find that some of them don't have Jewish ancestry--I just don't see what it signifies. They're overwhelmingly Muslim now (with a few exceptions.) None of them would be covered by Israel's law of return--any more than a Catholic in Spain who happens to be able to trace his female line back to a Jewish ancestress. Would said Catholic be halachically Jewish? Yeah, but unless he wants to abandon Catholicism and take up Judaism, he's still can't become Israeli under the law of return.
And, again, the law of return is only one way to become an Israeli citizen. A person of any religion can become a naturalized citizen.
Meanwhile, I'd be surprised to find that some of them don't have Jewish ancestry--I just don't see what it signifies. They're overwhelmingly Muslim now (with a few exceptions.) None of them would be covered by Israel's law of return--any more than a Catholic in Spain who happens to be able to trace his female line back to a Jewish ancestress. Would said Catholic be halachically Jewish? Yeah, but unless he wants to abandon Catholicism and take up Judaism, he's still can't become Israeli under the law of return.
And, again, the law of return is only one way to become an Israeli citizen. A person of any religion can become a naturalized citizen.
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Post #16
They clearly have become "a people" and, as such, serve as a tragic, living monument to the cynical and despicable opportunism of much of the Muslim leadership in the Levant.Jrosemary wrote:I agree with Jay that the Palestinian people, as we know them today, is a post-Mandate construction. It was really Arafat, as far as I can see, that molded them into a people. But just because they're a recent people doesn't mean they're not a people.
But what we're presented here has all the appearances of an agenda-driven maneuver. Note how we are treated to the following progression ...
- Sjoerd wrote:- If so, what about Palestinians? What if they turn out to be mostly of Twelve Tribes Israelite descent? Would that make them Jewish? Could they invoke the Right of Return?
- Sjoerd wrote:So, halachically, many Palestinians are Jews, but they don't have a permanent invitation to become Israeli.
And the "law of return" does not apply to those who reject Judaism, and is certainly is not an option to those who deny Israel's right to exist.Jrosemary wrote:And, again, the law of return is only one way to become an Israeli citizen. A person of any religion can become a naturalized citizen.
Post #17
I have no hidden agenda whatsoever. If you really want to know my opinion on the matter, read this thread (post 76 and beyond).
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... c&start=70
And I didn't commit any sleight of hand. JRosemary told me that many Palestinians are halachically Jews, and I believe her.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... c&start=70
And I didn't commit any sleight of hand. JRosemary told me that many Palestinians are halachically Jews, and I believe her.
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Post #18
Feel free to point out where or offer informed reasons why.Sjoerd wrote: JRosemary told me that many Palestinians are halachically Jews, and I believe her.
Re: Mitochondrial DNA to establish matrilinear descent
Post #19Sure.Jayhawker Soule wrote:Feel free to point out where or offer informed reasons why.Sjoerd wrote: JRosemary told me that many Palestinians are halachically Jews, and I believe her.
I asked:
And she responded (in two posts because I understood wrong the first time):Sjoerd wrote:Would that make them Jewish?
Jrosemary wrote:I think it's been known--oh, forever--that many Palestinians have Jewish ancestry.
Jrosemary wrote: A halachic Jew is anyone who's mother is Jewish--if you come from a matrilineal Jewish line, then you're a Jew even if your family has been Roman Catholic for centuries.
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings.
The nakedness of woman is the work of God.
Listen to the fool''''s reproach! it is a kingly title!
As the caterpiller chooses the fairest leaves to lay her eggs on, so the priest lays his curse on the fairest joys.
William Blake - The Marriage of Heaven and Hell
No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings.
The nakedness of woman is the work of God.
Listen to the fool''''s reproach! it is a kingly title!
As the caterpiller chooses the fairest leaves to lay her eggs on, so the priest lays his curse on the fairest joys.
William Blake - The Marriage of Heaven and Hell
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- Sage
- Posts: 684
- Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:43 am
- Location: Midwest
Post #20
Thank you for the reference. I think I'll let Jrosemary tell us what she meant by "many," but, meanwhile, why don't you tell us what would constitute "many" to you.