Hate Crime Legislation

[cholland]

Now that President Obama has included sexual orientation within the definition of a hate crime, I wonder what the next revision will include. I don't see 'age' on the list yet.

Is it healthy that the courts have to act like a psychiatrist in order to determine the level of punishment?

At what point do we stop the list? Pres Obama: "Time and again weve been reminded of the difficulty of building a nation in which were all free to live and love as we see fit."
Is there any end to "love as we see fit?" Why should one be prosecuted for "loving" a 12 year old girl if she is consenting? Why should one be prosecuted for polygamy if all wives involved are consenting?

[JoeyKnothead]

If we're gonna consider all homosexuals in terms of NAMBLA, where does that leave pedophile priests and their protectors? Must we now consider all priests and theists in amongst the bad apples?

You'll have to find a protector of the pedophile priests - I'm not one of them. BTW, this is as much a homosexual problem as a pedophile one, as almost all the crimes were male on male.

My point was that clumping all folks into one clod is a bit off. There are pedophiles among heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.

[East of Eden]

My point was that clumping all folks into one clod is a bit off. There are pedophiles among heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.

I was responding to McCulloch's asssertion that it was a 'smear campaign' to link gays with child molestation. It is not. According to Dr. Paul Cameron, in about a third of child molestation cases, the perp is gay, a percentage far above the number of gays in the general population. See below.

BTW, I know of no heterosexual group trying to legalize sex with children.


The Scientific Evidence
Three kinds of scientific evidence point to the proportion of homosexual molestation: 1) survey reports of molestation in the general population, 2) surveys of those caught and convicted of molestation, and 3) what homosexuals themselves have reported. These three lines of evidence suggest that the 1%-to-3% of adults who practice homosexuality (3) account for between a fifth and a third of all child molestation.

Reports of Molestation by the General Population
In 1983, a probability survey of the sexual experiences of 4,340 adults in 5 U.S. cities found that about 3% of men and 7% of women reported sexual involvement with a man before the age of 134 (i.e., 30% was homosexual).

In 1983- (4), a random survey of 3,132 adults in Los Angeles found that 3.8% of men and 6.8% of women said that they had been sexually assaulted in childhood. Since 93% of the assailants were male, and only 1% of girls had been assaulted by females, about 35% of the assaults were homosexual. (5)

The Los Angeles Times (6) surveyed 2,628 adults across the U.S. in 1985. 27% of the women and 16% of the men claimed to have been sexually molested. Since 7% of the molestations of girls and 93% of the molestations of boys were by adults of the same sex, about 4 of every 10 molestations in this survey were homosexual.

In a random survey of British 15-to-19 yr olds, 35% of the boys and 9% of the girls claimed to have been approached for sex by adult homosexuals and 2% of the boys and 1% of the girls admitted to succumbing. (7)

In science, a review of the professional literature published in a refereed scientific journal is considered to be an accurate summary of the current state of knowledge. The latest such review was published in 1985. (8) It concluded that homosexual acts were involved in 25% to 40% of the cases of child molestation recorded in the scientific and forensic literature.

Surveys of Those Convicted
Drs Freund and Heasman (9) of the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto reviewed two sizeable studies and calculated that 34% and 32% of the offenders against children were homosexual. In cases they had personally handled, homosexuals accounted for 36% of their 457 pedophiles.

Dr. Adrian Copeland, a psychiatrist who works with sexual offenders at the Peters Institute in Philadelphia, said (10) that, from his experience, pedophiles tend to be homosexual and 40% to 45% of child molesters have had significant homosexual experiences.

Dr. C. H. McGaghy (11) estimated that homosexual offenders probably constitute about half of molesters who work with children. Other studies are similar:

" Of the approximately 100 child molesters in 1991 at the Massachusetts Treatment Center for Sexually Dangerous Persons, a third were heterosexual, a third bisexual and a third homosexual in orientation. (12)

" A state-wide survey of 161 Vermont adolescents who committed sex offenses in 1984 found that 35 (22%) were homosexual. (13)

" Of the 91 molesters of non-related children at Canadas Kingston Sexual Behaviour Clinic from 1978-1984, 38 (42%) engaged in homosexuality. (14)

" Of 52 child molesters in Ottawa from 1983 to 1985, 31 (60%) were homosexual. (15)

" In England for 1973, 802 persons (8 females) were convicted of indecent assault on a male, and 3,006 (6 of them female) were convicted of indecent assault on a female (i.e., 21% were homosexual). 88% of male and about 70% of female victims were under age sixteen. (16)

Because of this pattern, Judge J. T. Rees concluded that the male homosexual naturally seeks the company of the male adolescent, or of the young male adult, in preference to that of the fully-grown man. [In 1947] 986 persons were convicted of homosexual and unnatural offences. Of those, 257 were indictable offences involving 402 male victims. The great majority of [whom] were under the age of 16. Only 11% were over 21.

[T]he problem of male homosexuality is in essence the problem of the corruption of youth by itself [i.e., by other boys] and by its elders. [And thereby] the creation of new addicts ready to corrupt a still further generation of young men and boys in the future. (17)

What Homosexuals Admit
The 1948 Kinsey survey found that 37% of the gays and 2% of the lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-17-yr-olds, and 28% of the gays and 1% of the lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-16-yr-olds while they themselves were aged 18 or older. (18)

In 1970 the Kinsey Institute interviewed 565 white gays in San Francisco: 25% of them admitted to having had sex with boys aged 16 or younger while they themselves were at least 21. (19)

In The Gay Report, 23% of the gays and 6% of the lesbians admitted to sexual interaction with youth less than 16 years of age. (20)

In France, 129 convicted gays (21)(average age 34 years) said they had had sexual contact with a total of 11,007 boys (an average of 85 different boys per man). Abel et al reported similarly that men who molested girls outside their family had averaged 20 victims each; those who molested boys averaged 150 victims each. (22)

Summary
About a third of the reports of molestation by the populace have involved homosexuality. Likewise, between a fifth and a third of those who have been caught and/or convicted practiced homosexuality. Finally, a fifth to a third of surveyed gays admitted to child molestation. All-in-all, a rather consistent story.

[JoeyKnothead]

My point was that clumping all folks into one clod is a bit off. There are pedophiles among heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.

I was responding to McCulloch's asssertion that it was a 'smear campaign' to link gays with child molestation. It is not. According to Dr. Paul Cameron, in about a third of child molestation cases, the perp is gay, a percentage far above the number of gays in the general population.

I accept this position, and your numbers, but I still think it's off to use this angle. Men are by their (evolutionary) nature quite aggressive when it comes to sex. They are far more likely to commit sexual crimes based on more criteria than their sexuality alone.

Is it right to paint all theists with the brush of pedophile priests? No. Nor should we paint all homosexuals based on their worst.

[East of Eden]

I accept this position, and your numbers, but I still think it's off to use this angle. Men are by their (evolutionary) nature quite aggressive when it comes to sex.

This is why marriage is such a civilizing influence for men.

They are far more likely to commit sexual crimes based on more criteria than their sexuality alone.

Their sexuality would seem to be a big component of sexual crimes.

Is it right to paint all theists with the brush of pedophile priests? No. Nor should we paint all homosexuals based on their worst.

In light of my above numbers on homosexuality/pedophilia, would you think it reasonable to conclude maybe gay scout leaders aren't a good idea?

As far as the pedophile priest issue, I think this is one more bad fruit stemming from the unbiblical idea of celibate priests, the other being huge priest shortages.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 24:

Men are by their (evolutionary) nature quite aggressive when it comes to sex.

This is why marriage is such a civilizing influence for men.

Yet so many would deny homosexual men this "civilizing influence". As it relates to the OP, IMO, it is a form of hate crime to restrict the rights of others based on who they love. I note East of Eden doesn't necessarily fall into this category.

They are far more likely to commit sexual crimes based on more criteria than their sexuality alone.

Their sexuality would seem to be a big component of sexual crimes.

Only perhaps in their determining their targets. My point is that conflating homosexuality with the potential for sexual crimes doesn't completely factor in all the many and various reasons folks commit such.

In light of my above numbers on homosexuality/pedophilia, would you think it reasonable to conclude maybe gay scout leaders aren't a good idea?

Not unless you also factor in heterosexual criminals as well. Of course if a scout leader showed up with a NAMBLA button we should be concerned, but again, homosexuality does not automatically equate to pedophilia or criminality.

As far as the pedophile priest issue, I think this is one more bad fruit stemming from the unbiblical idea of celibate priests, the other being huge priest shortages.

What then of a huge "scout leader shortage" where otherwise decent homosexuals are not allowed, with the potential for an increased number of criminals who aren't homosexuals? (I know, I hate hypotheticals, but if homosexuals are "hypothetically" liable to be criminals, then I contend it's a valid consideration)

I would much prefer we base our decisions on the person, and not so much on the group they may or may not belong to.

[micatala]

I accept this position, and your numbers, but I still think it's off to use this angle. Men are by their (evolutionary) nature quite aggressive when it comes to sex.

This is why marriage is such a civilizing influence for men.

I don't disagree. It's one of the reasons I think we should allow gay people to get married.

They are far more likely to commit sexual crimes based on more criteria than their sexuality alone.

Their sexuality would seem to be a big component of sexual crimes.

Following this logic, we could say color is a big reason black people commit crimes in greater percentages than whites.

Is it right to paint all theists with the brush of pedophile priests? No. Nor should we paint all homosexuals based on their worst.

In light of my above numbers on homosexuality/pedophilia, would you think it reasonable to conclude maybe gay scout leaders aren't a good idea?

Not necessarily. There are very few pedophiles of either gay or straight persuasion. Having a third of pedophiles being gay does not mean that gays in general present a great risk of pedophilia.

For example, if 1 out of 100,000 straight men are pedophiles and 20 out of 100,000 gay men are pedophiles and 10 percent of men are gay, then you would get about two thirds of pedophiles are gay.

Still, the risk of running across a gay pedophile even a roomful of gay men is vanishingly small.

Now, we should acknowledge that gays who are pedophiles might seek to be scout leaders in greater proportions than gay men in general. Still, to jump to the conclusion that we should ban gay scout leaders is not justified by the numbers alone.

[vickiinalabama]

Legislation may not be the perfect solution but what else is there?
Would you agree that somehow a strong message should be sent to discourage discrimination that is so severe it results in torture and death?
How else would you suggest sending such a message? Sounds like a lot of bright minds in this forum, maybe someone has a better idea.

[cholland]

Legislation may not be the perfect solution but what else is there?
Would you agree that somehow a strong message should be sent to discourage discrimination that is so severe it results in torture and death?
How else would you suggest sending such a message? Sounds like a lot of bright minds in this forum, maybe someone has a better idea.

I think we should prosecute these people to the fullest extent of the law. No question about that. But I fail to see why this crime is worse than others. Why should we seek a solution to prevent this crime and not others?

[vickiinalabama]

I agree the crime itself may be no different (murder, for example), but there seems to be a difference when the TARGET becomes any specific group or minority, whether homosexuals, blacks, children.

Logic would indicate that public exposure, rallying the public to support stiffer penalties, and enforcing those stiffer penalties would offer a higher level of deterrence. But would it?

Afraid those "haters" are too strongly influenced by some early indoctrination to be affected by tougher sentences, so not sure I don't agree with you that it may not have ACTUAL effect.

Would it make any one FEEL better to know the country was making a stance on their behalf? Would it be worth legislation for that alone?

[McCulloch]

I think we should prosecute these people to the fullest extent of the law. No question about that. But I fail to see why this crime is worse than others. Why should we seek a solution to prevent this crime and not others?

We justify harsher punishments for hate crimes because hate crimes cause greater individual and societal harm. Society suffers when a group of people are disempowered, thus a hate crime is a crime not just against the individual but against society. Furthermore, the chances for retaliatory crimes are greater when a hate crime has been committed.

When the core of a person's identity is attacked, the degradation and dehumanization is especially severe and additional emotional and physiological problems are likely to result.