John Calivn Should Be De-Elected For The Murder of Servetus

[Jonah]

Calvin bragged that he saw to the burning at the stake of Michael Servetus...whose crime was to hold unapproved theological opinions.

Calvin is of the "elect"????? Nah. Let's have a church trial.

[Jonah]

magus,

I didn't say Sabeel were terrorists...I said they support them. Which isn't much different than you saying they do wrong things.

On research. I've lived with these guys in my life. As former Lutheran cleric, I've had run-ins with the Lutherans in Sabeel...and their supporters here.

You mention the Protocols. Well, if you want to deal in the business of shadowy organizations, Sabeel is good example.

I will give you a little sample. The Lutheran Palestinian bishop, Munib Younan, who is a member of Sabeel, is also an officer in a weird neo-templar group based in Switzerland called The Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem.

Here's the order's website:

http://www.osmth.org/

Here's Younan's website where he cites his membership (which he didn't use to do):

http://www.elcjhl.org/admin/bishop/bishop.asp

I think, what you'll come away with is a sense that there is a lot going on with all these people than meets the surface eye. Tell me what you think.

[MagusYanam]

If you want my honest opinion, I think it has nothing to do with the MCC, or so little as to not make any difference at all - that they have given money in the past to a charity that is associated with a local cleric who might be a member of an obscure Swiss chivalric order does not make Mennonites anti-Semites. Anything can be a conspiracy if you make it into a game of 'Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon'.

[Jonah]

Conspiracy needs big network. That's not what goes on in this community. It's actually a very small group of people...as far as the mainline church reps and the Sabeel network. They even have a lone anti-Israel rabbi they use over and over again.

Sabeel has an intimate relationship with the Carter Center. Jimmy Carter's anti-Israel book used material from Sabeel propaganda. Carter has a well documented economic relationship between the Carter Center and organizations such as Sabeel and the Zayed Foundation.

Note Sabeel dude Sam Jones on the Carter Center payroll. He went to the School of International Service at The American University. I did too. It's a small world.

http://www.cartercenter.org/peace/human ... staff.html


OSMTH is a funding source for Younan and Sabeel and others. They are a continuation of the European right winger alliance with Arabs during the British Mandate. There's really bad blood between Israeli intelligence and the "chivalry" brigade. It's not rocket science. It's just the same cast of characters over and over.

[SpiritQuickens]

I guess John Calvin never read Exodus 20:13 (Thou shalt not kill).

Futhermore, I charge that Calvin himself is guilty of the crime of heresy. The doctrine of election is one of the most cruel and nonsensical doctrines I've ever heard of.

Calvin bragged that he saw to the burning at the stake of Michael Servetus...whose crime was to hold unapproved theological opinions.

Calvin is of the "elect"????? Nah. Let's have a church trial.

I agree. I feel that John Calvin has caused countless people to go to hell because he taught that after you say a prayer when you are three you go to heaven no matter what you do or believe.

Ugh. He did not teach that.

[CalvinsBulldog]

Calvin bragged that he saw to the burning at the stake of Michael Servetus...whose crime was to hold unapproved theological opinions.

Calvin is of the "elect"????? Nah. Let's have a church trial.

Let's get some perspective on this. The burning of Michael Servetus was a shocking travesty of justice. He was arrested by the Genevans; released for want of evidence. Then Servetus was immediately arrested by the Roman Catholics and held by the French Inquisition pending execution for heresy. He escaped prison and attended one of Calvin's sermons where he was arrested again.

Then, because Genevan law allowed, at worse, banishment from the city, there was a mad scramble to find a way for the death penalty and Calvin worked hard to have Servetus executed - Calvin was childed for leniency when he requested beheading rather than burning at the stake.

It was a shocking and terrible thing, and one which it seems Calvin never repented of. It is to be condemned. True Christian faith does not grow from the barrel of a gun or from the wielding of political power. Yet, despite the horror of his involvement, we must remember that it was the Genevan council that sentenced Servetus, and that the final decision was their's. This does not absolve Calvin, but it does apportion blame somewhat more fairly.

It is a reminder to folks that all people are mixtures of good and bad, and all lives are chequered. We may not have killed in the passion of our convictions, but that is not to say that might not in similar circumstance, or would not if pressed. And it is not to say that we go through life without ever inflicting hurt and pain on others. The murder of Servetus was the low point of Calvin's achievements; he deserves unreserved condemnation for this (and I speak as a Calvinist).