Is man inherently flawed?

[sickles]

im just curious.

for christians, this is likely a yes (original sin)
for buddhists, same (we are born uneducated to the dharma)
most others view you as flawed until you join, and since you arent born with membership, you are born flawed until a ceremony takes place (baptism or some other similar mechanism.)

[ChaosBorders]

Is man inherently born with greed, selfishness, and cruelty?

Probably not any more so than most animals with higher brain functions.

what does that mean? its a yes or no question. are you saying chimps and dolphins are more greedy, more selfish, and more cruel than an amoeba? we'll use the amoeba as a baseline.

Chimps certainly are. Dolphins I haven't heard of anything in particular, so maybe not.

[sickles]

Chimps certainly are.

prove it.

[ChaosBorders]

Chimps certainly are.

prove it.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/348

Is it possible that humans are the only animals capable of committing cruelty? According to De Waal, we are not. In Our Inner Ape, De Waal provides example after example of empathy and cruelty among chimps and bonobos.

Chimps posses this theory of mind as well. De Waal describes a game that a group of captive chimpanzees played in which they lured chickens to them with bread and then poked them with sharp wire for fun. The chimpanzees utilized thier physical and intellectual power over the weaker, less intelligent chickens to inflict pain upon them. The chicken's pain amused the chimps, illustrating the chimps' capacity for cruelty. Chimps also attack others in pairs, one holding the victim down and the other beating the helpless captive. In making their victim immobile in order to inflict more pain upon them, chimps exhibit a premeditated agenda to do harm. The infliction of pain releases endorphins in the chimps, rewarding them for their cruelty.

[Abraxas]

Is man inherently born with greed, selfishness, and cruelty?

Probably not any more so than most animals with higher brain functions.

Why do we assume those are flaws? Is a paperweight flawed because it is not a computer? Is a bird flawed because it is not a train? Flaw is a word that refers to something not being as it is supposed to be. I think before we can claim man to be flawed, the proposition about how man is supposed to be and why must first be supported.

[sickles]

Chimps certainly are.

prove it.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/348

Is it possible that humans are the only animals capable of committing cruelty? According to De Waal, we are not. In Our Inner Ape, De Waal provides example after example of empathy and cruelty among chimps and bonobos.

Chimps posses this theory of mind as well. De Waal describes a game that a group of captive chimpanzees played in which they lured chickens to them with bread and then poked them with sharp wire for fun. The chimpanzees utilized thier physical and intellectual power over the weaker, less intelligent chickens to inflict pain upon them. The chicken's pain amused the chimps, illustrating the chimps' capacity for cruelty. Chimps also attack others in pairs, one holding the victim down and the other beating the helpless captive. In making their victim immobile in order to inflict more pain upon them, chimps exhibit a premeditated agenda to do harm. The infliction of pain releases endorphins in the chimps, rewarding them for their cruelty.

of course the example you describe is that of CAPTIVE and possibly INSANE chimps. Chimps arent meant to be bored, and if you force them to be over long periods of time, they get destructive. So do horses, elephants, and dogs. Chimps just arent excited by chewing on shoes, or fences, or ramming thier head into a wall over and over. They seek interactive "fun". poor chicken. I didnt ask if a chimpanzee was capable of cruelty, I ask if a chimp is innately cruel. Lets get some examples from the wild, hhmmm? Jane Goodall got anything?

As for the beatings, this is interspecies, and thus could be from anything, but not likely cruelty. Might seem cruel to us, but it might be chimp politics, or a rival troop member, or hormones. It was probably done to demonstrate dominance.
The chicken might prove theory of mind in chimps, and i do think they have it, but the "pecking order" mentality that the chimp beatings probably demonstrate do not.

and even if these are examples of true cruelty in chimps, you said "Probably not any more so than most animals with higher brain functions."

so you think that the chicken poking is on the same level as..the holocaust? the crusades? the whale trade? clubbing baby seals? dropping an A bomb on japan?
african genocides?

[sickles]

Is man inherently born with greed, selfishness, and cruelty?

Probably not any more so than most animals with higher brain functions.

Why do we assume those are flaws? Is a paperweight flawed because it is not a computer? Is a bird flawed because it is not a train? Flaw is a word that refers to something not being as it is supposed to be. I think before we can claim man to be flawed, the proposition about how man is supposed to be and why must first be supported.

I assume they are flaws because they are self destructive and externally destructive, and it is not evolutionarily stable. And we have 185,000 years of humans not behaving in this way, thus something was "gained" in the last 15,000 years, and these "gains" i call flaws. Not to mention the millions of years of australopithicus, homo habilis, etc. In fact, cruelty and greed are the opposite of the traits that these peoples developed to succeed. They were social troops and tribes. Having these traits hurt the tribe , thus making the tribe less likely to be successful.