Did humans descend from other primates?

[McCulloch]

Man did not descend from the primates.

Did humans descend from other primates?
Are humans primates or should there be special biological taxonomy for humanity?
Please cite evidence.

[Goat]

Man did not descend from the primates.

Did humans descend from other primates?
Are humans primates or should there be special biological taxonomy for humanity?
Please cite evidence.

Yes, humans did descent from other primates. The evidence is the the fossil record


(prī'm�t') A mammal of the order Primates, which includes the anthropoids and prosimians, characterized by refined development of the hands and feet, a shortened snout, and a large brain.


Well, we are mammals, we have refined development of the handsd and feet, a shortened snout and a large brain. I guess we fit that very basic definition.

And from wiki:


An ape is any member of the Hominoidea superfamily of primates, including humans. Due to its ambiguous nature, the term ape has been deemphasized in favor of Hominoidea as a means of describing taxonomic relationships.

Under the current classification system there are two families of hominoids:

* the family Hylobatidae consists of 4 genera and 14 species of gibbon, including the Lar Gibbon and the Siamang, collectively known as the lesser apes.
* the family Hominidae consisting of chimpanzees, gorillas, humans and orangutans[1][2] collectively known as the great apes.

A few other primates, such as the Barbary Ape, have the word ape in their common names (usually to indicate lack of a tail), but they are not regarded as true apes.

Except for gorillas and humans, all true apes are agile climbers of trees. They are best described as omnivorous, their diet consisting of fruit, including grass seeds, and in most cases other animals, either hunted or scavenged, along with anything else available and easily digested. They are native to Africa and Asia, although humans have spread to all parts of the worl

[McCulloch]

From Wikipedia: Chimpanzee

Chimpanzees split from human evolution about 6 million years ago and the two chimpanzee species are the closest living relatives to humans. Research by Mary-Claire King in 1973 found 99% identical DNA between human beings and chimpanzees,[4] although research since has modified that finding to about 94%[5] commonality, with some of the difference occurring in non-coding DNA. It has been proposed that troglodytes and paniscus belong with sapiens in the genus Homo, rather than in Pan. One of the arguments for this is that other species have been reclassified to belong to the same genus on the basis of less genetic similarity than that between humans and chimpanzees.

Many human fossils have been found, but chimpanzee fossils were not described until 2005. Existing chimpanzee populations in West and Central Africa do not overlap with the major human fossil sites in East Africa. However, chimpanzee fossils have now been reported from Kenya. This would indicate that both humans and members of the Pan clade were present in the East African Rift Valley during the Middle Pleistocene.[6]

Chimpanzees make tools and use them to acquire foods and for social displays; they have sophisticated hunting strategies requiring cooperation, influence and rank; they are status conscious, manipulative and capable of deception; they can learn to use symbols and understand aspects of human language including some relational syntax, concepts of number and numerical sequence;[14] and they are capable of spontaneous planning for a future state or event.[15]

Recent studies have shown that chimpanzees engage in apparently altruistic behaviour within groups,[22][23] but are indifferent to the welfare of unrelated group members.[24]

Evidence for "chimpanzee spirituality" includes display of mourning, "incipient romantic love", "rain dance", appreciation of natural beauty such as a sunset over a lake, curiosity and respect towards wildlife (such as the python, which is neither a threat nor a food source to chimpanzees), empathy toward other species (such as feeding turtles) and even "animism" or "pretend play" in chimps cradling and grooming rocks or sticks.[25]
[edit] Communication

Chimps communicate in a manner similar to human non-verbal communication, using vocalizations, hand gestures, and facial expressions. Research into the chimpanzee brain has revealed that chimp communication activates an area of the chimp brain that is in the same position as Broca's area, the language center in the human brain.[26]

Laughter might not be confined or unique to humans. The differences between chimpanzee and human laughter may be the result of adaptations that have evolved to enable human speech. Self-awareness of one's situation as seen in the mirror test, or the ability to identify with another's predicament (see mirror neurons), are prerequisites for laughter, so animals may be laughing in the same way that humans do.

Chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans show laughterlike vocalizations in response to physical contact, such as wrestling, play chasing, or tickling. This is documented in wild and captive chimpanzees. Common Chimpanzee laughter is not readily recognizable to humans as such, because it is generated by alternating inhalations and exhalations that sound more like breathing and panting. There are instances in which non-human primates have been reported to have expressed joy. One study analysed and recorded sounds made by human babies and Bonobos when tickled. It found that although the Bonobo's laugh was a higher frequency, the laugh followed a pattern similar to that of human babies and included similar facial expressions. Humans and chimpanzees share similar ticklish areas of the body, such as the armpits and belly. The enjoyment of tickling in chimpanzees does not diminish with age.[32]

Pascal Gagneux, an evolutionary biologist and primate expert at the University of California, San Diego, argues that, given chimpanzees' sense of self, tool use, and genetic similarity to human beings, studies using chimps should follow the ethical guidelines that are used for human subjects unable to give consent.[46]

References:
[4] Mary-Claire King, Protein polymorphisms in chimpanzee and human evolution, Doctoral dissertation, University of California, Berkeley (1973).

[5] "Humans and Chimps: Close But Not That Close". Scientific American. 2006-12-19. . Retrieved 2006-12-20.

[6] McBrearty, S.; N. G. Jablonski (2005-09-01). "First fossil chimpanzee". Nature 437 (7055): 105–108. doi:10.1038/nature04008. Entrez Pubmed 16136135. PMID 16136135.

[14] "Chimpanzee intelligence". Indiana University. 2000-02-23. . Retrieved 2008-03-24.

[15] Osvath, Mathias (2009-03-10). "Spontaneous planning for future stone throwing by a male chimpanzee". Current Biology (Elsevier) 19 (5): R190–R191. doi:10.1016/j.cub.2009.01.010. PMID 19278627.

[22] "Human-like Altruism Shown In Chimpanzees". Science Daily. 2007-06-25. . Retrieved 2007-08-11.

[23] Bradley, Brenda (June 1999). "Levels of Selection, Altruism, and Primate Behavior". The Quarterly Review of Biology 74 (2): 171–194. doi:10.1086/393070. PMID 10412224.

[24] Nature. "Nature 437, 1357–1359 (27 October 2005)". Nature.com. doi:10.1038/nature04243. . Retrieved 2009-06-06.

[25] Appendices for chimpanzee spirituality by James Harrod

[26] "Communication". Evolve. 2008-09-14. No. 7, season 1.

[32] Steven Johnson (2003-04-01). "Emotions and the Brain". Discover Magazine. . Retrieved 2007-12-10.

[46] Lovgren, Stefan. Should Labs Treat Chimps More Like Humans?, National Geographic News, September 6, 2005.

[McCulloch]

From Wikipedia: Chimpanzee genome project

Human and chimpanzee chromosomes are very similar. [...]Differences between individual humans and Common Chimpanzees are estimated to be about 10 times the typical difference between pairs of humans.

[SailingCyclops]

Did humans descend from other primates?

There is a preponderance of Fossil and DNA evidence which says YES!

See: primates human evolution dna - Google Scholar

We have much DNA evidence:
Published molecular evidence concerning the relationship of man to African apes and Old World monkeys
A maximum likelihood method for inferring evolutionary trees from DNA sequence data was developed by Felsenstein (1981)
As well as much FOSSIL evidence:
Human Evolution: The fossil evidence in 3D
The Human Origins Initiative

Bob

[otseng]

Did humans descend from other primates?

No.

I'll give my arguments in a later post.

Are humans primates or should there be special biological taxonomy for humanity?

I do not object to Linnaean taxonomy when its use is limited to its original intent. It was simply classification based on morphological features. However, nowadays, it has been hijacked to imply lineage.

Rather than having a special taxonomy for humans, the Linnaean taxonomy should be used only to describe physical features and not have any implications of lineage. If this is accepted, then I have no problem classifying humans as primates.

Research by Mary-Claire King in 1973 found 99% identical DNA between human beings and chimpanzees,[4] although research since has modified that finding to about 94%[5] commonality, with some of the difference occurring in non-coding DNA.

Similarities do not necessarily mean lineage. It could also mean they were designed is a similar fashion. HP and Gateway computers share many similarities, but they did not derive from the other.

Also, the percentage of identical DNA does not equate to the same percentage similarity in form, function, and behavior. Further, as you cited, the oft quoted 99% similarity between man and chimps is not accurate, and the more recent research has placed it at 94%.

Also, as far as I know, no evolutionist claims that there is a direct lineage from a chimp to a human. So, even if there are similarities, a chimpanzee would not show how humans evolved from primates.

Edit:
Corrected from "there is no direct lineage" to "there is a direct lineage"

[McCulloch]

If the evidence already presented is not enough, there is the evidence of the endogenous retrovirus.

Retroviruses are viruses that reverse-transcribe their RNA into DNA for integration into the host's genome. Most retroviruses infect somatic (normal) cells. But on occasion they can infect germline cells (cells that make eggs and sperm). When this happens, the retrovirus can be transmitted to the next generation. The term endogenous is used to describe when a virus enters the genome of a species. Endogenous retroviruses can persist in the genome of their host for long periods. Since the endogenous retrovirus is not necessary for reproduction, there is no selective pressure to keep it free from mutations, and so retroviruses will acquire mutations at about the same rate as other non-essential non-coding DNA. Eventually, retroviruses are rendered inactive because of these mutations, and they sit quietly in the genome, a testament to an infection that occurred generations in the past.

It is reasonable to conclude that for any two given organisms, finding common endogenous retrovirus sequences in their respective genomes would be a confirmation of common heredity between them, since the only mechanism to explain common endogenous retrovirus sequences would be a shared ancestry. There is no conceivable reason, outside of common descent, why any two unrelated organisms would have the same endogenous retrovirus insertions.

So far, and the research is not yet complete, of the 30,000 retroviral insertions in the human genome, have been seven insertions that are common to humans and chimpanzees.

See: Talk Origins -- Evidences for evolution, Retroviruses

[Goat]

Did humans descend from other primates?

No.

I'll give my arguments in a later post.

Are humans primates or should there be special biological taxonomy for humanity?

I do not object to Linnaean taxonomy when its use is limited to its original intent. It was simply classification based on morphological features. However, nowadays, it has been hijacked to imply lineage.

Rather than having a special taxonomy for humans, the Linnaean taxonomy should be used only to describe physical features and not have any implications of lineage. If this is accepted, then I have no problem classifying humans as primates.

Research by Mary-Claire King in 1973 found 99% identical DNA between human beings and chimpanzees,[4] although research since has modified that finding to about 94%[5] commonality, with some of the difference occurring in non-coding DNA.

Similarities do not necessarily mean lineage. It could also mean they were designed is a similar fashion. HP and Gateway computers share many similarities, but they did not derive from the other.

Also, the percentage of identical DNA does not equate to the same percentage similarity in form, function, and behavior. Further, as you cited, the oft quoted 99% similarity between man and chimps is not accurate, and the more recent research has placed it at 94%.

Also, as far as I know, no evolutionist claims that there is no direct lineage from a chimp to a human. So, even if there are similarities, a chimpanzee would not show how humans evolved from primates.

While there is not direct 'lineage', we do share a direct common ancestor, and there is evidence that even after there was a seperation between the line that became the 'chimps' and the line that became Human, there was genetic swapping for a few hundred thousand years. We have more than just morphological differences, there is also the evidence of the EVR's, which gives absolutely overwhelming evidence of a common ancestor.

[otseng]

Since the endogenous retrovirus is not necessary for reproduction, there is no selective pressure to keep it free from mutations, and so retroviruses will acquire mutations at about the same rate as other non-essential non-coding DNA. Eventually, retroviruses are rendered inactive because of these mutations, and they sit quietly in the genome, a testament to an infection that occurred generations in the past.

There is a contradiction in this.
"there is no selective pressure to keep it free from mutations, and so retroviruses will acquire mutations at about the same rate as other non-essential non-coding DNA."
"and they sit quietly in the genome"
How can ERV have mutations and also sit quietly? It is either one or the other. If mutations do occur on them, then there would be significant differences between ERV in different organisms, especially if there's a large distance of lineage between them. If mutations do not occur, then what kept them from having mutations?

Also, this assumes that endogenous retrovirus have no function. This is not the case. It has been shown in recent studies that the ERV is not functionless.

Endogenous retrovirus (ERV) elements have been shown to contribute promoter sequences that can initiate transcription of adjacent human genes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18535086

The role of endogenous retroviruses in placental morphogenesis and trophoblast differentiation was hypothesized 10 years ago [19]. More recent studies point to the presence of HERV-R (ERV 3), HERV-FRD, HERV-W, HERV-F, HERV-K and HERV-T in human placenta, coding for intact retroviral Env proteins.

http://www.retrovirology.com/content/5/1/6

A role for endogenous retroviral sequences in the regulation of lymphocyte activation

http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/8/2448

Thus, HERV-K (HML-2) Rec may function as an oncoprotein by de-repressing oncogenic transcription factors such as AR.

http://vir.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/ ... /91/6/1494

A better explanation of ERV is that they were originally designed in the DNA for a purpose, rather than randomly inserted into the DNA. And a prediction that follows from this is that we will continue to find more functions for ERV.

[otseng]

While there is not direct 'lineage', we do share a direct common ancestor, and there is evidence that even after there was a seperation between the line that became the 'chimps' and the line that became Human, there was genetic swapping for a few hundred thousand years.

What was the common ancestor? And what is the lineage between that ancestor and humans? And how did the genetic swapping occur between the chimp line and humans?