What would convince you that God doesn't exist?

[abnoxio]

I'm interested what it would take for a Christian, Catholic, etc. to be convinced that God did not exist.
In other words what kind of proof would convince you. The discovery of Jesus's body? Alien invaders? that kind of thing.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[israeltour]

Oddly enough, I was involved with the international Churches of Christ for 13 years, 4 of those as the local church leader/evangelist. And during the last 3 or 4 years I became dissillusioned to the point that I knew that the only way I would leave the church was if I became convinced that God did not exist. Being that we were a VERY active and disciplined group, who were trying to follow what the first century church did, we were very legalistic, and had a very, very clear idea of what we believed was the way to heaven (being a disciple Matt 28:18------ go make disciples of all nations thing).

So in short, please excuse my ramblings, I saw that in reality God or any supernatural powers were responsible for absolutely nothing.

I think once I woke up to that fact, that God has NO power, NO influence, NO counsel, No miracles, No healings, No mercy No...... you get the basic idea.

I totally agree that God wasn't in your church or your work, but it's because even while the Church of Christ thumps on their Bible, they do not teach the Gospel, which is salvation by God's grace. They instead preach works and servitude, and if that didn't save the Jews, then why would it save the church? And so it didn't save you... but God's grace will still suffice, should you decide to accept it. And then the works commanded by Christ will flow from you out of love, not legalism. It is through God's grace that His presence can be known... but simply following a rule book won't do it, as you've shown.

[Dilettante]

I agree with otseng that finding the body of Christ would be (to most people) conclusive proof that Christianity is not true. But there are problems with this. Some people already think that the resurrection was a "spiritual event" (whatever that means) rather than a material one. Also, as has been pointed out, it would be nearly impossible to establish that a certain set of bones belonged to Jesus. Most depictions of Jesus are derived from the description found in the Epistula Lentuli (which, anyway, experts do not not consider authentic) and were produced long after Jesus died. The early Christians depicted Jesus via symbolic images (such as a shepherd or a fish) and no "dal vivo" portraits exist. Average skull data aren't very helpful either, because an individual can look very different from such reconstructions (what if Jesus was an albino?)

So then, what would convince people that God does not exist? Ideally, people should be convinced one way or the other by logic, but in practice few people are. I suspect that this is so because when it comes to religion people are generally guided by their feelings (this can be true of non-believers also, of course--some people lose their faith because of a personal tragedy). I don't think it's possible to conclusively prove or disprove "the God hypothesis", but one can give good reasons. Provisionally at least, we should lean toward the side with the best argument.

[FreddieFreeloader]

In other words what kind of proof would convince you. The discovery of Jesus's body? Alien invaders? that kind of thing.

Actually, whether you intended to or not, you hit the nails on the head with those.

Pretty much if someone exhumed the body of Jesus Christ, there would go Christianity. If Jesus did not resurrect from the dead, then Christianity is a fraud.

1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

As for an alien invader (or any sign of any extraterrestrial being), I wouldn't say it would be the downfall of Christianity, but to me it would be the downfall of creationism.

So, yes, these points would falsify Christianity and creationism.

I don't believe that any of those particular events would disprove God's existence, since I don't see how a literary interpretation of anything is nescesarry for Christianity. But...

About a year ago, I attended a lecture on Mars and Extraterrestrial Life by late physicist Jens Martin Knudsen (probably totally unknown to anyone but me). As a part of this he spoke on the implications of the discovery of extraterrestrial life. He didn't concern himself with YEC, but he did see the potential for a very accurate "test" of God's existence.
Even though he himself saw the "parameters of the universe" (the strength of the fundamental forces, cosmological constants etc.) as so well calibrated that it seems more than a "happy coincidence", the definite proof for/against God would depend, not on the existence of extraterrestrial life (which he was a firm believer in), but on wether or not (if the life is intelligent) God had revealed himself to the "alien inhabitants".

[Cephus]

About a year ago, I attended a lecture on Mars and Extraterrestrial Life by late physicist Jens Martin Knudsen (probably totally unknown to anyone but me). As a part of this he spoke on the implications of the discovery of extraterrestrial life. He didn't concern himself with YEC, but he did see the potential for a very accurate "test" of God's existence.
Even though he himself saw the "parameters of the universe" (the strength of the fundamental forces, cosmological constants etc.) as so well calibrated that it seems more than a "happy coincidence", the definite proof for/against God would depend, not on the existence of extraterrestrial life (which he was a firm believer in), but on wether or not (if the life is intelligent) God had revealed himself to the "alien inhabitants".

Not sure exactly what that would prove but it would be interesting to see how human theologians would deal with a vastly superior alien race showing up. Whether or not the aliens have any form of religion, there goes the whole concept of mankind's superiority out the window.

[FreddieFreeloader]

The point is that, if there are other intelligent races in the universe one would expect that God would offer salvation to these people on the same terms that he has supposedly given us. That is... he should be the God of every species in the universe and present himself in some way to all of his potential worshippers.

[israeltour]

About a year ago, I attended a lecture on Mars and Extraterrestrial Life by late physicist Jens Martin Knudsen (probably totally unknown to anyone but me). As a part of this he spoke on the implications of the discovery of extraterrestrial life. He didn't concern himself with YEC, but he did see the potential for a very accurate "test" of God's existence.
Even though he himself saw the "parameters of the universe" (the strength of the fundamental forces, cosmological constants etc.) as so well calibrated that it seems more than a "happy coincidence", the definite proof for/against God would depend, not on the existence of extraterrestrial life (which he was a firm believer in), but on wether or not (if the life is intelligent) God had revealed himself to the "alien inhabitants".

Not sure exactly what that would prove but it would be interesting to see how human theologians would deal with a vastly superior alien race showing up. Whether or not the aliens have any form of religion, there goes the whole concept of mankind's superiority out the window.

I'm not sure which religion you're referring to. Christianity doesn't teach that we're superior. The animals are here to serve us and feed us, but servitude by itself does not imply superiority of the master.

If you think the Bible preaches superiority over animals, and by extension extra terrestrial life,then that's your own interpretation, but I've never heard it taught in any church I've been in.

Furthermore, if there is ET life, the only theological conclusion I believe is that Jesus died for their sins.

[McCulloch]

I'm not sure which religion you're referring to. Christianity doesn't teach that we're superior. The animals are here to serve us and feed us, but servitude by itself does not imply superiority of the master.
If you think the Bible preaches superiority over animals, and by extension extra terrestrial life,then that's your own interpretation, but I've never heard it taught in any church I've been in.

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

I do not know if dominion over means the same as superiority over, but the distinction is rather fine.

Furthermore, if there is ET life, the only theological conclusion I believe is that Jesus died for their sins.

And by extension, if the ET life form were to accept Jesus, he too would be saved. But wait, the ET's home planet is many light-years away and they have no way to find out about this wonderful grace. Maybe god in his wisdom provided them with a divinely inspired book, explaining it to them. Would you believe a religion that taught that god himself became one of his own creatures on a distant planet, was sacrificed and rose back to life. Believe and you will be saved.

[israeltour]

I'm not sure which religion you're referring to. Christianity doesn't teach that we're superior. The animals are here to serve us and feed us, but servitude by itself does not imply superiority of the master.
If you think the Bible preaches superiority over animals, and by extension extra terrestrial life,then that's your own interpretation, but I've never heard it taught in any church I've been in.

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

I do not know if dominion over means the same as superiority over, but the distinction is rather fine.

American slave masters had dominion over their slaves, but were never superior to them.

Furthermore, if there is ET life, the only theological conclusion I believe is that Jesus died for their sins.

And by extension, if the ET life form were to accept Jesus, he too would be saved. But wait, the ET's home planet is many light-years away and they have no way to find out about this wonderful grace. Maybe god in his wisdom provided them with a divinely inspired book, explaining it to them. Would you believe a religion that taught that god himself became one of his own creatures on a distant planet, was sacrificed and rose back to life. Believe and you will be saved.

1. I do not believe He did that, though He could.
2. I believe God would lead the ETs to earth to learn of God's Son and His sacrifice.
3. I believe, in the meantime, the ETs' salvation would be like that of the Jews before Christ or like the proverbial village isolated on a desert island: I believe they're saved if they accept God as He reveals Himself. Any contradictions between "revelations" would be sentient error.
4. Were I to be wrong, and the ETs came to earth with essentially the same theology that we already had: God's Son dying, rising, etc., but on their home planet, then it would support my belief that Jesus died for my sins, and my other belief that Biblical contradictions result from human error, not divine error... if Jesus can be with God at the foundation of the earth, then be born of a virgin, then preach in Hell three days after death, then rise from the dead and ascend to Heaven, and then stand by the Father's right hand in Heaven, then He's perfectly capable of doing it elsewhere, too. I don't think He did, but if He did, then fine.

[McCulloch]

If you think the Bible preaches superiority over animals, and by extension extra terrestrial life,then that's your own interpretation, but I've never heard it taught in any church I've been in.

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

I do not know if dominion over means the same as superiority over, but the distinction is rather fine.

American slave masters had dominion over their slaves, but were never superior to them.

No, they were not superior to them but they had legal superiority over them, sanctioned both by the bible and by the US constitution.

[keltzkroz]

Hi! I dont know if this is related to the concept of dominion and superiority, but I have some questions. If I have a toothbrush which I own and use, do I have dominion over it? Am I superior to my toothbrush? Perhaps this is what was meant by man having dominion over animals (non homo sapiens, you know what I mean)? Please let me know your thoughts on this matter.