Jews and Jesus

[naz]

- Some Questions for Debate -

* Are Jews for Jesus?
* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?
* Are Jewish people no different than the pagans that killed Christ for turning their backs on him?
* Are Jewish people ungrateful for not believing and is that why they havent had any other messengers from god in over 2,000+ years?

Debate and justify your reasons.

[Flail]

My own perspective, which I have mentioned before, is that while Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, I see no problem with the idea that he might (might!) have been sent by God as a sort of Messiah to the Gentiles.

Your God might (might!) be an awfully odd fellow. Send a messiah to the Gentiles, teaching them that this messiah is the one foretold in the Jewish sacred writings. Will you at least admit that the Christians who teach that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish messianic prophesied are wrong?

I've already done that; not only are the Christians who teach that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah wrong in my opinion, but the New Testament itself engages in falsehood when it makes that claim. The New Testament claims to derive its teachings from the Old, but it does not acknowledge the debt those teachings owe to Greek religious ideas that are wholly foreign to Judaism, starting with gods fathering human children. Jesus's "incarnation" has more to do with Hercules and Zeus than with Abraham and Moses.

I regard Christianity as a separate religion that is unrelated to Judaism except through historical accident; Jesus was a Jew, but those who formed and shaped the Christian religion were not. I doubt that Paul, the real founder and formulator of Christian teachings, was a Jew in the first place. If he was, his views on the Law, the relationship between humans and God, and the point of religion were so far from normative Judaism, even that of his own day, that they are unintelligible to most Jews. When Paul talks about the teachings of Judaism, he reveals himself as either ignorant or apostate - e.g., no one ever said that every Jew had to totally fulfill every aspect of the Law without error in order to be "saved" (one may find "proof texts" that seem to indicate that in the Bible, but then the Bible has never been the sole supreme authority in Judaism. That place belongs to the tradition, including the Oral Torah, which we regard as authoritative alongside Scripture).

Doctrinally, the two religions have very little in common. For starters, Judaism does not concern itself with the concept central to Christianity, personal "salvation." That's a pretty basic difference right there. Neither does Judaism regard the concept of God's incarnation as a human being as in any way acceptable, and rejects the idea that "belief" or "faith" of whatever content is relevant to "salvation," or indeed to anything at all, other than the ways in which that content affects one's actions. Those differences are true of every branch of Judaism of which I know (excepting "Messianic Judaism," which as I have noted before, is not Judaism at all, but a form of Christianity).

As a separate religion, I withhold judgment on whether or not God finds Christianity acceptable, just as I do Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Baha'i, et. al. I say I don't regard Christianity as a "false religion," but notice that I do not affirm that it is a true religion either. I don't profess to know; that's God's job. God might have sent Muhammad, Krishna, Baha'ullah and the Buddha too, for all I know. None of them have anything to do with my own religion, and it's none of my business. Unlike most faiths, when it comes to other religions, Jews have little or nothing to say. We may object to the practices of some other faiths - but are their precepts at bottom true, or false? We don't claim to know.

And as for God being an "odd fellow" - well, we knew that. As Will Rogers once pointed out, we know that God has a sense of humor, because he made monkeys, giraffes, and "a lot of you people." Perhaps God inspired, or allowed, many faiths because there are many ways that people can be induced to live in an ethical manner; or perhaps all of them, including Judaism, are entirely man-created. Again, I don't profess to know the mind, or the motivations, of God. Do you?

Although I am a non-theist Ignostic, I do respect Judaism as I do Bhudaism. Neither of these religions judges anyone to Hell and have a much more philosophical approach to living and life than Paul's Christianity.

[cnorman18]

Will you at least admit that the Christians who teach that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish messianic prophesied are wrong?

...the New Testament itself engages in falsehood

Thank you.

As a separate religion, I withhold judgment on whether or not God finds Christianity acceptable, just as I do Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Baha'i, et. al.

Since we cannot know whether God finds any religion acceptable (Judaism included), can we agree that God's approval is, if not irrelevant, moot?

That would be the applicable term, yes - and I agree that I don't know if God approves of Judaism, either. Personally, if I were to claim to read God's mind, I'd guess that He doesn't much care what we believe. I think he is more concerned about how we behave. And good people who behave ethically can be found who follow any religion, or none.

I say I don't regard Christianity as a "false religion," but notice that I do not affirm that it is a true religion either.

Why not? You claim not to know whether it is a false religion, yet you can say that its own holy books engage in falsehood. What else is required to make it a false religion?

By that standard, I'd have to say that my own religion is false. I don't think everything in the OT is true, either; far from it. As far as the issue of the Messiahship of Jesus is concerned, perhaps I should have said "mistaken" rather than "false," though the difference is subtle, I suppose.

My concern is not with statements of doctrine or pseudohistory or the reliability of ancient documents or the nature of God, but with what a religion teaches. The ethic of Christianity and the ethic of Judaism are very similar, though not quite the same; my quibble, if you like, is with Christianity's idea of the point of ethical behavior. Christianity teaches that the point is primarily to go to Heaven; in Judaism, ethical behavior is good for its own sake. All the "son of God" stuff is more or less shrug-worthy, as far as I'm concerned. All that means to me is that Christianity is not a development or branch or evolution of Judaism. That is a misperception or a mistake.

I don't profess to know; that's God's job. God might have sent Muhammad, Krishna, Baha'ullah and the Buddha too, for all I know. None of them have anything to do with my own religion, and it's none of my business.

Is that your deeply held (non) conviction on the matter, or is it a matter of practical self-preservation not to draw the obvious conclusion?

The former. I have no warrant to dictate to God what he ought to teach others, or why there might be differences in those lessons (though differences in time, place, and culture come to mind). Most religions have some positive elements, at least, and I have no way of knowing how much we Jews garbled the message, either.

For all we know, ALL religions are man-made (which is not necessarily the same as "false," let us note). If that's the case, the issue then becomes how positive, productive, and non-repressive a religion is, never mind its unprovable and unevidenced claims of moot metaphysical "doctrines." By those standards, along with the standards of not resisting rational thought, scientific research, and logic - all of which are respected, even revered, in Judaism - I kinda like the religion I've got. That doesn't mean I'm willing to spit on all the rest. Nor on intelligent atheism either, just for the record. For my money, there's too much spitting on this forum (and in the world) already. It isn't necessary to call someone else an idiot, a heretic, or a liar in order to hold one's own views. Rodney Dangerfield knew the key word here, and he didn't get much of it, either.

I would happily admit that the tradition of nonjudgmentalism among Jews probably does have its origins in the fact that we have almost always been a tiny minority religion - and consistently, for centuries, the most despised and persecuted religion on Earth. Enough people hate us already, and always have, that we haven't found it prudent to sneer and spit. The same obviously hasn't applied in reverse. Jews have usually been sneered at and and spit on with impunity - and far worse.

By the way, if anyone thinks that references to Jewish persecution are all about the Holocaust, that person knows little of the history of my people. It didn't start with Hitler, and it surely didn't end in 1945, either.

Again, I don't profess to know the mind, or the motivations, of God. Do you?

No, I don't. But using my apparently God-given intellect, I can assess the competing claims of human groups all claiming to hold revelations and instructions from the god.

And you consequently reject them all, do you not? Oddly enough, I reject all those claims, too, including those of my own faith. I'm not a Jew because I believe the Torah came directly from God, or because I think mine is the One True Faith. In my belief, Judaism holds water on its own merits, whether or not it comes direct from God's mouth, pen, keyboard, or stone-engraving finger. I think the Tanakh was written by men (and a few women) struggling with the God-concept, and that the traditions and teachings of my religion were formed over thousands of years of rational debate and argument beginning with those texts as a springboard. If God was involved, it was (and is) in the fact that we share the capacities for rational thought and moral consciousness with Him. That is, in fact, what "in the image of God" means in the Jewish religion.

Once again; the heart of Judaism is ethics. Metaphysical beliefs and theological doctrines about the nature of God, the afterlife, and allathatstuff are optional and up to the individual's personal judgment. That's a dogma, if you like; in the words of my own rabbi (also quoted in my signature), "The only dogma of Judaism is that there is no dogma." He would be shocked if I said that was original with him; it's a very old dictum.

The fact that Judaism is not organized around a central core of doctrinal assertions is very often hard for non-Jews to grasp, but there it is. We're not going to develop a Creed of Beliefs and require all Jews to sign off on it in order to make everyone else comfortable. Many religions profess to support tolerance and freedom of thought; once again, I have no comment on those claims - but my own religion absolutely puts those principles into practice, even among ourselves. Jews believe in many different ways, and we leave each other alone about it - and everyone else too.

[EduChris]

...my quibble, if you like, is with Christianity's idea of the point of ethical behavior. Christianity teaches that the point is primarily to go to Heaven...

Wow... Christianity teaches the exact opposite! While it is true that perfectly ethical behavior would be the only way to earn favor with God, Christianity insists that no one is able to live a perfectly ethical life. Therefore, God gives us his favor out of his mercy and love, and we respond by following Jesus' example and teaching to love God with all our heart and to love our neighbor as ourself.

[cnorman18]

...my quibble, if you like, is with Christianity's idea of the point of ethical behavior. Christianity teaches that the point is primarily to go to Heaven...

Wow... Christianity teaches the exact opposite! While it is true that perfectly ethical behavior would be the only way to earn favor with God, Christianity insists that no one is able to live a perfectly ethical life. Therefore, God gives us his favor out of his mercy and love, and we respond by following Jesus' example and teaching to love God with all our heart and to love our neighbor as ourself.

I see your point; but the point of being a Christian, i.e. believing in Jesus as one's personal savior, is still going to Heaven, is it not? From that point of view, ethical behavior is essentially irrelevant and unnecessary, and I don't agree with that idea either.

The task, and chief concern and responsibility, of humans, according to Judaism, is tikkun Olam - the "repair of the world' - making this world and this life better for all humans. Christianity, particularly the conservative varieties, is almost exclusively concerned with the NEXT world. My essential point stands.

[EduChris]

...I see your point; but the point of being a Christian, i.e. believing in Jesus as one's personal savior, is still going to Heaven, is it not? From that point of view, ethical behavior is essentially irrelevant and unnecessary, and I don't agree with that idea either...

Technically speaking, we don't "go to heaven"; rather, heaven comes to us. The New Jerusalem comes to the restored earth, and the entire universe will be our home.

Christians are to love God with all our heart, and we are to love our neighbor (especially the least of our neighbors) as ourself. This includes not only charity, but also justice in the larger structural sense. To the extent that any of us actually does this, the present world will become a better place for everyone. And to the extent that we fail to do this, we are not following the example and teaching of Jesus as we should.

[cnorman18]

...I see your point; but the point of being a Christian, i.e. believing in Jesus as one's personal savior, is still going to Heaven, is it not? From that point of view, ethical behavior is essentially irrelevant and unnecessary, and I don't agree with that idea either...

Technically speaking, we don't "go to heaven"; rather, heaven comes to us. The New Jerusalem comes to the restored earth, and the entire universe will be our home.

Um, yeah, okay, whatever. The primary concern is still obviously with the next life, about which Judaism says nothing. In our view, that's God's business, and we trust God. That's the end of the matter.

Christians are to love God with all our heart, and we are to love our neighbor (especially the least of our neighbors) as ourself. This includes not only charity, but also justice in the larger structural sense. To the extent that any of us actually does this, the present world will become a better place for everyone. And to the extent that we fail to do this, we are not following the example and teaching of Jesus as we should.

But, again, that's not essential, is it? No matter how vicious and evil a person is, one can still repent, believe, and everything is cool, right? Service to one's neighbor still takes a back seat to personal salvation, no matter how you spell it; and in Judaism, the latter just isn't on the radar screen. We don't concern ourselves with "salvation" in the Christian sense at all.

As I have said, the ethic of Christianity and the ethic of Judaism are quite similar; but the effect of Christian belief on this world is still absolutely a secondary concern to conservative Christians. Again, that's your business and your belief, but it's a fundamental difference between Christianity and Judaism.

I don't say that it's a wrong belief; but it's not my belief. In my opinion, it's a matter of screwed-up priorities. You feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, and leave what they believe and whether they go to Heaven - and whether you do yourself, and whether or not there even IS a Heaven - in God's hands.

[EduChris]

...The primary concern is still obviously with the next life, about which Judaism says nothing....

What do Jewish people say about Daniel 12:2-3?

...No matter how vicious and evil a person is, one can still repent, believe, and everything is cool, right? Service to one's neighbor still takes a back seat to personal salvation...

Well, yes, anyone who asks for God's mercy and forgiveness, and who demonstrates their sincerity by repenting--by turning away from their evil viciousness--will receive mercy and forgiveness.

...the effect of Christian belief on this world is still absolutely a secondary concern...it's a fundamental difference between Christianity and Judaism...

We do believe that this present world is but a shadow of the life to come, but still, as long as we have hungry to feed, naked to clothe, sick and imprisoned to visit--those actions must be our priority because that's what Jesus asks of us.

As far as I can tell, the only "this-worldy" ethical difference between Jewish and Christian teaching is that Christians aren't obligated to follow the Mosaic ritual/ceremonial/dietary laws. In other words, as a Christian I fully accept the Jewish teaching that we are to "make this world and this life better for all humans."

[cnorman18]

...The primary concern is still obviously with the next life, about which Judaism says nothing....

What do Jewish people say about Daniel 12:2-3?

Well, first, that there are many areas of speculation and many points of view acceptable within the spectrum of Jewish belief. Many Jews do believe in an afterlife, but very, very few will tell you what it's like or that it's the center of our belief. There are references to an afterlife in the Tanakh, aka the OT, but none are unequivocal or uncontradicted.

Second, you have to understand that the Bible does not hold the same authority in Judaism that it does in Christianity. Daniel is among the minor prophets, is considered a late apocalyptic text, and is not nearly as deeply and widely studied as the five books of Moses - which do not even mention an afterlife or allude to it in any way.

...No matter how vicious and evil a person is, one can still repent, believe, and everything is cool, right? Service to one's neighbor still takes a back seat to personal salvation...

Well, yes, anyone who asks for God's mercy and forgiveness, and who demonstrates their sincerity by repenting--by turning away from their evil viciousness--will receive mercy and forgiveness.

...the effect of Christian belief on this world is still absolutely a secondary concern...it's a fundamental difference between Christianity and Judaism...

We do believe that this present world is but a shadow of the life to come, but still, as long as we have hungry to feed, naked to clothe, sick and imprisoned to visit--those actions must be our priority because that's what Jesus asks of us.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you are here supporting my argument 100%. "A shadow of the life to come" indicates that this life is of minor importance compared to the next. QED.

As far as I can tell, the only "this-worldy" ethical difference between Jewish and Christian teaching is that Christians aren't obligated to follow the Mosaic ritual/ceremonial/dietary laws. In other words, as a Christian I fully accept the Jewish teaching that we are to "make this world and this life better for all humans."

Uh, maybe you didn't know this, but many modern Jews don't believe we are obligated to follow the "Mosaic ritual/ceremony/dietary laws" either. There's a bit more to it than that.

I usually advise people who profess knowledge of Judaism to read a basic book or two on the subject. I don't feel that your case warrants an exception. You might be surprised at what you don't know. I was an ordained Methodist minister and a very well-read one, but I knew very little about modern Judaism; like most Christians, I knew more about first-century Judaism than that of the present day, and that only through Paul and the Gospels - a rather unreliable and inaccurate guide at best, even for the Judaism of that time.

[EduChris]

..."A shadow of the life to come" indicates that this life is of minor importance compared to the next. QED.

I don't see how our ethical stance is any different simply because we believe that the good that we do, the joys that we share, the challenges that we overcome--in short, everything that is good in this life--will follow us into the next life. From a practical standpoint, nothing you've said indicates in any way that Jewish people and Christian people will actually behave differently from a "this-worldly" ethical standpoint.

...Uh, maybe you didn't know this, but many modern Jews don't believe we are obligated to follow the "Mosaic ritual/ceremony/dietary laws" either.

In that case (and I know there are Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Jews who believe differently on this matter) then there would be no difference in the actual, this-worldly ethical stance between the Jews (the ones who don't follow those laws) and Christians.

...I usually advise people who profess knowledge of Judaism to read a basic book or two on the subject. I don't feel that your case warrants an exception. You might be surprised at what you don't know...

That's always good advice. And I expect you've already read Fretheim and Brueggemann?

[naz]

By that standard, I'd have to say that my own religion is false. I don't think everything in the OT is true, either; far from it. As far as the issue of the Messiahship of Jesus is concerned, perhaps I should have said "mistaken" rather than "false," though the difference is subtle, I suppose.

My concern is not with statements of doctrine or pseudohistory or the reliability of ancient documents or the nature of God, but with what a religion teaches. The ethic of Christianity and the ethic of Judaism are very similar, though not quite the same; my quibble, if you like, is with Christianity's idea of the point of ethical behavior. Christianity teaches that the point is primarily to go to Heaven; in Judaism, ethical behavior is good for its own sake. All the "son of God" stuff is more or less shrug-worthy, as far as I'm concerned. All that means to me is that Christianity is not a development or branch or evolution of Judaism. That is a misperception or a mistake.

I have a been a Christian for quite some time and I have never got that out of Christianity. That the point is primarily to go to heaven. I have always followed the Lords pray and that is really all any Christian needs to follow.

"Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil".

This basically means to follow God, and live your life on earth as if you were living it in heaven. I dont know where you and many others get the impression that people are granted a free trip to heaven after they die. Our time is now and it is on this earth. That is why Jesus says the only way to heaven is through him. Following Jesus makes it easy for everyone to follow god, even if they are not quite sure who God is, but wish to know. It allows everyone if they so choose to live and spend the time on this earth as if we were living our lives in heaven.

People only have one opportunity or one lifetime to prove their worth; I doubt many people will ever get a second chance especially if they failed horribly the first time. However, Jesus is also the way of forgiveness. For Jesus understands that we are not perfect and can change for the better if we so choose. That is why he is the savior and the Son of God. Jesus saw something in us that no one else ever seen. He communicated with God, his father in Heaven for us when our voices were weak, when we couldnt speak. He spoke to God for us so that maybe one day we may be a better bread of people. That is why it is said, God works through us in remarkable ways

And that my friend is the Lords prayer, for us.