Is the vicarious redemption of jesus MORAL?

[Dr.Physics]

(lets assume the the crucifixion happened as the christians say it does for this thread)

the crucifixion of jesus christ was brutal and bloody. if i were present i would feel the need to STOP the bloody human sacrifice. this act of vicarious redemption is equivalent to scapegoating. is this not immoral and barbaric?

"you can serve my sentence in jail, but you cant take away my responsibility... after looking at the offer (of jesus' sacrifice) and considering it, i would rather decline the offer of this lamb's blood, but thanks anyways...... - whats that? if i dont accept this offer you will KILL ME?! and send me to hell for eternity? is that a THREAT?" (Christopher Hitchens)

This Christian god IF he exists does NOT give me or you a choice, but rather is blackmailing us into following him. The christian idea of god is a "supernatural dictatorship in whose court you have no repeal, with a leader you can not overthrow, and whose supervision you could never escape." (hitch)

i either must worship this being which i think is IMMORAL for performing and/or participating in human sacrifices (among other atrocities) OR burn in hell for eternity.. this is not an offer of a moral creator.[/b]

[theopoesis]

...On the one hand, goodness is not an arbitrary exertion of will. Something is not simply good because God says it is so. It is good because it conforms to the nature of God...Good is not independent of God, just of God's will...

Is this solution available to other theisms such as Islam? How can we conceptualize the distinction between God's nature and God's will? Are there trinitarian implications here? Is there something specifically incarnational that might help us understand this distinction between God's nature and God's will?

Lots of good questions, as usual, EduChris. I don't know that I can answer all of them. I'm not as familiar with Medieval theology, which is what I was drawing on. A few brief points:

(1) This might be available to other theisms, particularly Islam. There were many Medieval philosophical ideas that were taken from Islam. Since this stuff comes from that era, I have to admit a decent possibility of idea sharing.

(2) The Trinitarian implication is most clear in that will and being are differentiated within the Trinity. The answer I present to the Euthyphro dilemma wasn't invented to respond to the dilemma. It already existed in Christian theology for other reasons.

(3) To be honest, I run into trouble when it comes to the incarnation and the will of God. I have a tendency to lapse into monothelytism, and I haven't quite got that part of theology figured out. Your question completely stumps me. You have any ideas?

[EduChris]

...I run into trouble when it comes to the incarnation and the will of God...You have any ideas?

To make the distinction between God's nature and God's will, it seems that you have to make the case that it would be possible, at least in principle, for God to sin. But how can an omniscient, omnibenevolent God ever choose to sin?

If God the Son emptied himself of his divine prerogatives, it would be easier to make the case that Jesus could have sinned--inadvertently at least, and by ommission if not commission. If this is the case, then it might have been possible, at least in principle, for God (the Son) to sin. And it is only this possibility that permits the distinction between God's nature and God's will.

Without recourse to the Trinity and the incarnation (e.g., in Islam) I'm not sure that it makes sense to distinguish between God's nature and God's will. Or is it?

[flitzerbiest]

He would have been justified in executing [Adam and Eve] on the spot and ending the universe then and there.

For a victimless act of intellectual curiosity? Please.

No. God told them not to take the knowledge of Good and Evil. They made their decision to go against their Creators will and suffered the consequences. They had not been created to be able to handle the knowledge of Good and Evil and this is clear as the state of humanity today and down through history shows. There are many millions of victims of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Mankind would never have know violence if they never knew good and evil.

Not buying it. The most violent character in the Bible, hands down, is God. That children all over the world are given Noah's Ark toys is potent testimony to the fantastic ability of Christians to ignore this fact.

You still haven't addressed the fact that God condemns countless billions of people for the petty theft committed by Adam and Eve, WHO WERE CHILDLESS AT THE TIME! Why the **** didn't he just start over, thus sparing billions of people from risk of hell? How can an omniscient being be so short-sighted?

[TheParticlePerson]

I don't understand how the "knowledge of good and evil" could be dangerous. In fact, don't most theists claim to have that knowledge? Adstar, can you show where it's said that humans weren't created to handle that knowledge? It seems to me that God gave a ridiculous arbitrary command, and the humans understandably disobeyed.

Not only did curiosity kill the cat, it led to the fall of mankind!

[Woland]

...you're explaining the (or rather, your) Christian worldview...

If a Christian on this forum recites from the catechism, he is accused of blindly following dogma. And if a seminary educated Christian gives his own interpretations, he is accused of being a maverick. I wonder if there is anything a Christian can do on this forum that would exempt him or her from this "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma?

It is my view that when you're arguing in favor of believing a very specific set of myths containing countless grandiose claims and supernatural elements that unsurprisingly have no verifiable evidence to support them except for tales by religious promoters written decades after the alleged events (and a few obscure references, at least some of them inserted by other dishonest religious promoters, yet all of which are absolutely irrelevant to the numerous supernatural claims made by "seminary-educated Christians" and others) you're pretty much doomed in advance in terms of credibly defending your position, since it can only be supported by tales, hearsay and dogma - all of which are available to several ideologies invoking a specific version of "the supernatural", and all of which can be and have been successfully manufactured by human mammals for various reasons.

None of the adherents to any of these ideologies, as far as I can discern, has demonstrated that they have, in reality, any knowledge about the supernatural, yet they keep making elaborate claims about it.

...Who could the "we" even possibly refer to in that example? Our ape ancestors? Or is it that a precise point in evolution "humans" were granted a soul and continued to exhibit the behaviors of their social primate ancestors (jealousy, violence, friendship, etc.), thereby "choosing to sin"?...

The "we" refers collectively to the human race, comprised as it is of individuals who quite evidently exercise their free will for purposes contrary to other-regarding, other-respecting, other-serving love.

In the light of this and keeping in mind the facts about our ancestors which have uncovered by the study of evolution, what does it mean to say that we were "created good" and "chose to experience sin and suffering"?

Have babies who die in horrible pain at birth chosen to experience suffering?

What about the animal kingdom as it was for hundreds of millions of years before anything remotely "human" ever existed? Did the animals also choose to experience suffering and pain on a massive scale? I wonder what answers Christians can possibly give to these questions.

Are humans able to prevent themselves from "sinning" if they are born and they live in this world?

...What happened to people after they died before the sacrifice of Jesus? What really changed there?

The incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus provides the justification for God to act as our judge with complete authenticity and integrity, in solidarity with us rather than as an indifferent spectator to the human condition. According to Christian tradition, we will all face the day of judgement together (regardless of when we have died) and we will all be judged by the resurrected Jesus.

Is everyone going to "Heaven" according to your theological view?

-Woland

[Adstar]

He would have been justified in executing [Adam and Eve] on the spot and ending the universe then and there.

For a victimless act of intellectual curiosity? Please.

No. God told them not to take the knowledge of Good and Evil. They made their decision to go against their Creators will and suffered the consequences. They had not been created to be able to handle the knowledge of Good and Evil and this is clear as the state of humanity today and down through history shows. There are many millions of victims of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Mankind would never have know violence if they never knew good and evil.

Not buying it. The most violent character in the Bible, hands down, is God. That children all over the world are given Noah's Ark toys is potent testimony to the fantastic ability of Christians to ignore this fact.

Well buying it or not is your decision. But an answer has been given.

You still haven't addressed the fact that God condemns countless billions of people for the petty theft committed by Adam and Eve, WHO WERE CHILDLESS AT THE TIME! Why the **** didn't he just start over, thus sparing billions of people from risk of hell? How can an omniscient being be so short-sighted?

Firstly i cannot put a number up about how many are condemned and how many are not, and you cannot do so either.

Secondly you presume that humanity and the universe is Gods, "Main Game" I believe different. I believe this universe was created as a reaction to satans rebellion, it is a designed stage made to demonstrate the justification of God and His position as the One and only God and to show satan as being unworthy and incapable of Godhood. Two thirds of the Angels will be won over to this truth. How many Angels do you suppose will be saved from the Lake of Fire? Billions? trillions? how many Angels are there? Do you know.

God was not short sighted. He knew what was going to happen. God created the world and humanity with an inbuilt ability to turn against Him to allow satan a stage to demonstrate his credentials before the Host of Heaven. God gave satan enough rope to hang himself and satan has done just that by taking the bait. How could satan ever believe that he could overcome One who knows all History from the very Beginning to the End.

Yes it has been a long history with much suffering. But each human individual is only called upon to spend One life time in this state of being. We who believe God do not suffer in vain. Eternity is infinitely longer than a life time, there is no comparison. In fact for me it is a great honour to go through my time in life.

Once again God has provided a Way for all mankind to avoid condemnation and when man reject that Way they are the agent force that causes their own condemnation. God is Just and the Justifier of all whom have a Love for The truth.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

I don't understand how the "knowledge of good and evil" could be dangerous. In fact, don't most theists claim to have that knowledge?

I don't know any Christian who has denied we all have the knowledge of Good and Evil. Been on a lot of christian forums in my times, and heard a lot of weird and wacky doctrines being put forward but never that one.

The Knowledge of Good and Evil inside Human beings has been clearly demonstrated by our History. Just look around you at the world today. Human use evil even more readily than they use good to solve their perceived problems or to get their desires. War, exploitation, murder, corruption, nepotism, oppression manipulation, the list goes on and on and on.

Adstar, can you show where it's said that humans weren't created to handle that knowledge? It seems to me that God gave a ridiculous arbitrary command, and the humans understandably disobeyed.

Not only did curiosity kill the cat, it led to the fall of mankind!

I do not need to point to some scripture reference. All you need do is look at the history of mankind and how our tragic history continues to repeat itself. Not just in events between peoples and nations but between individuals. I know there are a lot of "idealists" who believe we should be able to create a perfect society and perfect ourselves, It is a curse many humans carry because they have the knowledge of Good and because of this they can imagine who good this world could be. But no society or movement has ever created a Utopia and they never will, The inverse is correct. idealists in this world are used to create tragedies of great suffering because they are driven to pursue Utopias, Nazi SS members, communists red guards, the Taliban, Inquisitors even economic rationalists have more in common then they realise. All of them being idealists justifying any action to achieve their desired outcome. They have and will continue to fail because their utopias do not factor in the Human element. All Isim's fall down when you add people to the equation. The only difference today from times past is that the growth of knowledge has only lead to the growth in suffering caused when these false Utopias go pear shaped and crash.

Human beings just cannot handle the knowledge of Good and Evil.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Woland]

He would have been justified in executing [Adam and Eve] on the spot and ending the universe then and there.

For a victimless act of intellectual curiosity? Please.

No. God told them not to take the knowledge of Good and Evil. They made their decision to go against their Creators will and suffered the consequences. They had not been created to be able to handle the knowledge of Good and Evil and this is clear as the state of humanity today and down through history shows. There are many millions of victims of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Mankind would never have know violence if they never knew good and evil.

They weren't created to handle that knowledge, but you go on to imply that God knew what was going to happen when he created the humans.

All the blame for human suffering necessarily rests on him - and you still didn't answer how it could even potentially be seen as just and loving of "God" to sentence his own creation to death and torture simply for having "done evil" without even knowing what evil was, or understanding the consequences of their actions.

Do you even understand the malevolence required to do something like that? How about you present us with a parent-child analogy that takes these into considerations?

Not buying it. The most violent character in the Bible, hands down, is God. That children all over the world are given Noah's Ark toys is potent testimony to the fantastic ability of Christians to ignore this fact.

Well buying it or not is your decision. But an answer has been given.

It does indeed seem like Hell-believing Christians have to ignore a lot of unpleasant facts about their deity, defining it as good despite all their own evidence to the contrary and never addressing points that make him look like the immensely petty and cruel being that such a deity would have to be.

You still haven't addressed the fact that God condemns countless billions of people for the petty theft committed by Adam and Eve, WHO WERE CHILDLESS AT THE TIME! Why the **** didn't he just start over, thus sparing billions of people from risk of hell? How can an omniscient being be so short-sighted?

I believe this universe was created as a reaction to satans rebellion, it is a designed stage made to demonstrate the justification of God and His position as the One and only God and to show satan as being unworthy and incapable of Godhood.

Then you believe in a singularly malevolent deity - one who tortures countless sentient creatures just to prove a point to another creature he also created.

God was not short sighted. He knew what was going to happen. God created the world and humanity with an inbuilt ability to turn against Him to allow satan a stage to demonstrate his credentials before the Host of Heaven.

Do you even have any idea at all of just how shallow, petty and cruel you are making your god sound here?

God gave satan enough rope to hang himself and satan has done just that by taking the bait. How could satan ever believe that he could overcome One who knows all History from the very Beginning to the End.

Exactly. The stories are nonsense and lack even internal coherence.

Yes it has been a long history with much suffering. But each human individual is only called upon to spend One life time in this state of being. We who believe God do not suffer in vain. Eternity is infinitely longer than a life time, there is no comparison. In fact for me it is a great honour to go through my time in life.

But those who don't believe in your Orwellian and conveniently invisible deity DO suffer in vain, don't they? They will suffer for eternity at the hands of your maniacal deity concept.

Once again God has provided a Way for all mankind to avoid condemnation and when man reject that Way they are the agent force that causes their own condemnation. God is Just and the Justifier of all whom have a Love for The truth.

Nonsense. People who already believe in other religions for the same reasons as you believe in your god ("faith + claims" and not a shred of verifiable evidence) aren't very likely to turn to your deity during their lifetimes if they're already indoctrinated with, say, "Allah-belief". To pretend that they would deserve eternal torture for this while rednecks who are born to fanatical parents in the Bible Belt don't is, again, to support an infinitely cruel dictator deity concept.

-Woland

[TheParticlePerson]

I don't understand how the "knowledge of good and evil" could be dangerous. In fact, don't most theists claim to have that knowledge?

I don't know any Christian who has denied we all have the knowledge of Good and Evil. Been on a lot of christian forums in my times, and heard a lot of weird and wacky doctrines being put forward but never that one.

The Knowledge of Good and Evil inside Human beings has been clearly demonstrated by our History. Just look around you at the world today. Human use evil even more readily than they use good to solve their perceived problems or to get their desires. War, exploitation, murder, corruption, nepotism, oppression manipulation, the list goes on and on and on.

Adstar, can you show where it's said that humans weren't created to handle that knowledge? It seems to me that God gave a ridiculous arbitrary command, and the humans understandably disobeyed.

Not only did curiosity kill the cat, it led to the fall of mankind!

I do not need to point to some scripture reference. All you need do is look at the history of mankind and how our tragic history continues to repeat itself. Not just in events between peoples and nations but between individuals. I know there are a lot of "idealists" who believe we should be able to create a perfect society and perfect ourselves, It is a curse many humans carry because they have the knowledge of Good and because of this they can imagine who good this world could be. But no society or movement has ever created a Utopia and they never will, The inverse is correct. idealists in this world are used to create tragedies of great suffering because they are driven to pursue Utopias, Nazi SS members, communists red guards, the Taliban, Inquisitors even economic rationalists have more in common then they realise. All of them being idealists justifying any action to achieve their desired outcome. They have and will continue to fail because their utopias do not factor in the Human element. All Isim's fall down when you add people to the equation. The only difference today from times past is that the growth of knowledge has only lead to the growth in suffering caused when these false Utopias go pear shaped and crash.

Human beings just cannot handle the knowledge of Good and Evil.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

What do you think the world would be like if we didn't have the knowledge of good and evil?

[Adstar]

He would have been justified in executing [Adam and Eve] on the spot and ending the universe then and there.

For a victimless act of intellectual curiosity? Please.

No. God told them not to take the knowledge of Good and Evil. They made their decision to go against their Creators will and suffered the consequences. They had not been created to be able to handle the knowledge of Good and Evil and this is clear as the state of humanity today and down through history shows. There are many millions of victims of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Mankind would never have know violence if they never knew good and evil.

They weren't created to handle that knowledge, but you go on to imply that God knew what was going to happen when he created the humans.

All the blame for human suffering necessarily rests on him - and you still didn't answer how it could even potentially be seen as just and loving of "God" to sentence his own creation to death and torture simply for having "done evil" without even knowing what evil was, or understanding the consequences of their actions.

I don't imply God know what was going to happen. Thats what i clearly believe. But this does not mean that God is guilty of their decision to accept the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God gave them warning Before they decieded to believe satan and take the knowledge of Good and Evil. therefore they did understand that God warned them of death if they took it. They chose to disbelieve God and believe satan and so they died. i believe God gave them an ability to accept or reject satan. they chose to accept. therefore they are responsable for theri own deaths along with satan.

Do you even understand the malevolence required to do something like that? How about you present us with a parent-child analogy that takes these into considerations?

Once again. Firstly Adam and Eve where responsable for their decision. But even them God has provided a way for Adam and Eve to have eternity with God through the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus.

Not buying it. The most violent character in the Bible, hands down, is God. That children all over the world are given Noah's Ark toys is potent testimony to the fantastic ability of Christians to ignore this fact.

Well buying it or not is your decision. But an answer has been given.

It does indeed seem like Hell-believing Christians have to ignore a lot of unpleasant facts about their deity, defining it as good despite all their own evidence to the contrary and never addressing points that make him look like the immensely petty and cruel being that such a deity would have to be.

I have taken pains to address the point. You don't like my answer, thats clear , But i have addressed your point.

You still haven't addressed the fact that God condemns countless billions of people for the petty theft committed by Adam and Eve, WHO WERE CHILDLESS AT THE TIME! Why the **** didn't he just start over, thus sparing billions of people from risk of hell? How can an omniscient being be so short-sighted?

I believe this universe was created as a reaction to satans rebellion, it is a designed stage made to demonstrate the justification of God and His position as the One and only God and to show satan as being unworthy and incapable of Godhood.

Then you believe in a singularly malevolent deity - one who tortures countless sentient creatures just to prove a point to another creature he also created.

Not with joy. But because it had to happen that way. God either did it that way or simply ended the existence of all His creation.

God was not short sighted. He knew what was going to happen. God created the world and humanity with an inbuilt ability to turn against Him to allow satan a stage to demonstrate his credentials before the Host of Heaven.

Do you even have any idea at all of just how shallow, petty and cruel you are making your god sound here?

Thats just your view.

God gave satan enough rope to hang himself and satan has done just that by taking the bait. How could satan ever believe that he could overcome One who knows all History from the very Beginning to the End.

Exactly. The stories are nonsense and lack even internal coherence.

No nonsence. God had to allow satan a clear chance to demonstrate the veracity of his claim. If God just destroyed satan on the spot then the heavenly host would from that time on submitted to God out of fear not because they agreed He was trully justified as God.

Yes it has been a long history with much suffering. But each human individual is only called upon to spend One life time in this state of being. We who believe God do not suffer in vain. Eternity is infinitely longer than a life time, there is no comparison. In fact for me it is a great honour to go through my time in life.

But those who don't believe in your Orwellian and conveniently invisible deity DO suffer in vain, don't they? They will suffer for eternity at the hands of your maniacal deity concept.

Well those who knowingly reject His Redemption will.

Once again God has provided a Way for all mankind to avoid condemnation and when man reject that Way they are the agent force that causes their own condemnation. God is Just and the Justifier of all whom have a Love for The truth.

Nonsense. People who already believe in other religions for the same reasons as you believe in your god ("faith + claims" and not a shred of verifiable evidence) aren't very likely to turn to your deity during their lifetimes if they're already indoctrinated with, say, "Allah-belief". To pretend that they would deserve eternal torture for this while rednecks who are born to fanatical parents in the Bible Belt don't is, again, to support an infinitely cruel dictator deity concept.

Once again i believe if they have been given the Message of Jesus and they knowingly reject His Atonement for their sins they will spend eternity in the Lake Of Fire


All Praise The Ancient Of Days