Is the vicarious redemption of jesus MORAL?

Dr.Physics · Post by **Dr.Physics** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:04 am

(lets assume the the crucifixion happened as the christians say it does for this thread)

the crucifixion of jesus christ was brutal and bloody. if i were present i would feel the need to STOP the bloody human sacrifice. this act of vicarious redemption is equivalent to scapegoating. is this not immoral and barbaric?

"you can serve my sentence in jail, but you cant take away my responsibility... after looking at the offer (of jesus' sacrifice) and considering it, i would rather decline the offer of this lamb's blood, but thanks anyways...... - whats that? if i dont accept this offer you will KILL ME?! and send me to hell for eternity? is that a THREAT?" (Christopher Hitchens)

This Christian god IF he exists does NOT give me or you a choice, but rather is blackmailing us into following him. The christian idea of god is a "supernatural dictatorship in whose court you have no repeal, with a leader you can not overthrow, and whose supervision you could never escape." (hitch)

i either must worship this being which i think is IMMORAL for performing and/or participating in human sacrifices (among other atrocities) OR burn in hell for eternity.. this is not an offer of a moral creator.[/b]

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:29 am

TheParticlePerson wrote:
Adstar wrote:
TheParticlePerson wrote:I don't understand how the "knowledge of good and evil" could be dangerous. In fact, don't most theists claim to have that knowledge?
I don't know any Christian who has denied we all have the knowledge of Good and Evil. Been on a lot of christian forums in my times, and heard a lot of weird and wacky doctrines being put forward but never that one.

The Knowledge of Good and Evil inside Human beings has been clearly demonstrated by our History. Just look around you at the world today. Human use evil even more readily than they use good to solve their perceived problems or to get their desires. War, exploitation, murder, corruption, nepotism, oppression manipulation, the list goes on and on and on.

Adstar, can you show where it's said that humans weren't created to handle that knowledge? It seems to me that God gave a ridiculous arbitrary command, and the humans understandably disobeyed.

Not only did curiosity kill the cat, it led to the fall of mankind!
I do not need to point to some scripture reference. All you need do is look at the history of mankind and how our tragic history continues to repeat itself. Not just in events between peoples and nations but between individuals. I know there are a lot of "idealists" who believe we should be able to create a perfect society and perfect ourselves, It is a curse many humans carry because they have the knowledge of Good and because of this they can imagine who good this world could be. But no society or movement has ever created a Utopia and they never will, The inverse is correct. idealists in this world are used to create tragedies of great suffering because they are driven to pursue Utopias, Nazi SS members, communists red guards, the Taliban, Inquisitors even economic rationalists have more in common then they realise. All of them being idealists justifying any action to achieve their desired outcome. They have and will continue to fail because their utopias do not factor in the Human element. All Isim's fall down when you add people to the equation. The only difference today from times past is that the growth of knowledge has only lead to the growth in suffering caused when these false Utopias go pear shaped and crash.

Human beings just cannot handle the knowledge of Good and Evil.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
What do you think the world would be like if we didn't have the knowledge of good and evil?

I guess Adam and Eve would still be running around naked like a playfull happy toddlers in a natural paradise with the harmless animals.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:30 am

Double post

TheParticlePerson · Post by **TheParticlePerson** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:34 am

I wish I could say I knew whether or not you're kidding.

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:50 am

TheParticlePerson wrote:I wish I could say I knew whether or not you're kidding.

Well it is all academic isn't it. Things happened they way they happened.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Woland · Post by **Woland** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:42 am

Hello Adstar,

I'd like to try something. These are simple questions requiring only simple answers, but feel free to elaborate.

1. Is disobeying God evil?
2. Did Adam and Eve decide to disobey God?
3. If they did, did they know what evil was when they decided to disobey God?
4. Did they understand that they and their descendants would risk eternal torture, suffering, painful childbirth etc. if they disobeyed God? Were they made fully aware of the consequences of collective punishment, eternal torture etc.?

5. Would you punish someone with an extreme form of prolonged (or eternal) torture if they did something wrong without knowing how and why they did wrong, and without understanding the consequences of their actions?

6. Would you consider a parent who starts beating the *crap* out of their child at the first offense to be a loving parent?

7. What if the parent started beating up his own child's eventual children and grandchildren and justified this by saying that his own child did wrong a long time ago, and that they've been held responsible for this "original sin"? Would you view this as loving and fair?

-Woland

wonderer · Post by **wonderer** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:00 pm

Woland wrote:Hello Adstar,

I'd like to try something. These are simple questions requiring only simple answers, but feel free to elaborate.

1. Is disobeying God evil?
2. Did Adam and Eve decide to disobey God?
3. If they did, did they know what evil was when they decided to disobey God?
4. Did they understand that they and their descendants would risk eternal torture, suffering, painful childbirth etc. if they disobeyed God? Were they made fully aware of the consequences of collective punishment, eternal torture etc.?

5. Would you punish someone with an extreme form of prolonged (or eternal) torture if they did something wrong without knowing how and why they did wrong, and without understanding the consequences of their actions?

6. Would you consider a parent who starts beating the *crap* out of their child at the first offense to be a loving parent?

7. What if the parent started beating up his own child's eventual children and grandchildren and justified this by saying that his own child did wrong a long time ago, and that they've been held responsible for this "original sin"? Would you view this as loving and fair?

-Woland

Good questions. I really hope that somone who believes in hell, and believes God to be just, will provide answers to these questions, although it would not be possible to provide reasonable ones.

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:03 pm

Woland wrote:Hello Adstar,

I'd like to try something. These are simple questions requiring only simple answers, but feel free to elaborate.

1. Is disobeying God evil?

Yes.

2. Did Adam and Eve decide to disobey God?

Yes.

3. If they did, did they know what evil was when they decided to disobey God?

Well they did not know about good and evil when they decided to disobey God. But they still decided to believe satan and disbelieve God. they had a choice and chose for the wrong.

4. Did they understand that they and their descendants would risk eternal torture, suffering, painful childbirth etc. if they disobeyed God? Were they made fully aware of the consequences of collective punishment, eternal torture etc.?

You have not been reading what i have been saying have you. Don't you think you should take the time to actually read what i say before moving on and asking questions that show you have been ignoring what i have said. Once again.

No one suffers for eternity for sin only.

One must both SIN and REJECT THE SAVLATION OF THE MESSIAH JESUS.

God told them that they would die. That was enough warning and they did die. But eternal suffering does not come until they reject the salvation of the Messiah Jesus.

5. Would you punish someone with an extreme form of prolonged (or eternal) torture if they did something wrong without knowing how and why they did wrong, and without understanding the consequences of their actions?

Once again As above One must Sin and REJECT THE SAVLATION OF THE MESSIAH JESUS to have eternal toucher. And they where pre warned that they would die if they took the knowledge of Good and Evil.

6. Would you consider a parent who starts beating the *crap* out of their child at the first offense to be a loving parent?

Where talking about God here. A perfect being who cannot accept anyone into eternity who is anything less than perfect. So the first offence makes one less than perfect. But no eternal beatings are going to happen till one rejects the atonement for their sins provided by God.

7. What if the parent started beating up his own child's eventual children and grandchildren and justified this by saying that his own child did wrong a long time ago, and that they've been held responsible for this "original sin"? Would you view this as loving and fair?

-Woland

All the children having knowledge of Good and Evil passed down from the original who accepted the knowledge of Good and evil will sin. Therefore fall short of perfection. Therefore they will all need the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus for the righteous forgiveness of sin.

I would consider the actions of God in going out of His way by suffering a brutal death to save us as being the act of a Loving God.

All Praise The Ancient of Days