What would convince you that God doesn't exist?

[abnoxio]

I'm interested what it would take for a Christian, Catholic, etc. to be convinced that God did not exist.
In other words what kind of proof would convince you. The discovery of Jesus's body? Alien invaders? that kind of thing.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[McCulloch]

Such passages can easily be multiplied.

You mean picked apart.

No, I mean that there are very many such passages to be found within the Jewish historical books. Only someone who has not read them (or was asleep while they were being read) would deny this. In the Jewish historical books, the god is portrayed as a military tribal deity. The highest praise and greatest ethical achievement in this section of scripture is faithfulness to this particular deity and to his chosen people.
In the christian new testament, on the other hand, this same god is supposed to be a loving, universal spiritual father. The christian's beautiful cohesive theology text, does not do a great job at explaining this abrupt transformation of the unchanging god.

No hint at the future revelation of "Love your enemies" and "Turn the other cheek." I miss the cohesiveness of the message.

I have already addressed this.

If the bible were a cohesive unified whole, one would expect that there would have been some foreshadowing of the "good-cop" aspect of the god in those passages where the god is portrayed as a "bad-cop". I may be quite dense at times, so I could not find where this issue was addressed in your previous posts. Could you provide a link? instructions and Added Post URL as BBCode

[trencacloscas]

I will continue to assume that your questions are asked in sincerity, in spite of my suspicion that your intent is to be demeaning and insulting.

Believe me, your suspicion has no foundation. This was actually the path that led me to deconversion. The ugliness, the clumsiness, the pathetic way the Bible is written and compiled compared to the wonderful works of art and the heights of thought that the world have produced was my personal proof that The Bible was not inspired at all.

There are many answers I believe contribute to the truthful one. The spiritual answer: God loves those who write "junk" as much as "real writers". (Also, keep in mind that the education system was not what it is today. There was not a defined concept of "literary form".)

Sad excuses. If God Almighty would like to give a definitive testimony or communication to man, there is no possible reason for choosing absolute mediocrities as his vehicles. The education system of ancient Greece and Rome did have a defined concept of literary form. Moreover, they had masters and models of high literature and philosophy. Epictetus or Marcus Aurelius could trash the entire Bible to pieces with one single sentence. Plato or Aristotle shrinks the entire Bible to ridicule with one single thought. Why choose almost illiterate Jews and Greeks for such an important message?

The practical answer: The Bible was not written for your entertainment or pleasure. Some of the books contain poetry; some are histories; some are sermons. Several are purely philosophical or prophetic, and are not expected to mean anything at all to those who do not believe.

Then why does it fail so miserably? It failed to me when I believed and it uses to fail for the non-brainwashed. Anyway, it fails in all respects: the poetry is average (its highest point, the Song Of Songs, was included by mistake); the sermons are mostly dull and fearful, contradictory or empty; the philosophy (if there really is some) is just unimpressive, the prophecies are late fabrications, most of them written after the events "prophetized", or just unfulfilled, the histories does not respond to archaeological evidence... Why trust such book, then?

The Bible was not written for your entertainment or pleasure.

If I were sure that I wouldn't be misinterpreted, I'd rather say that the Bible was written to torture Mankind.

[The Happy Humanist]

No other species engages in works of art, and yet they survive.

[McCulloch]

The beauty of the Bible is in its cohesiveness, particularly with respect to prophecy and its fulfillment.

They said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for this is written through the prophet,
You Bethlehem, land of Judah,
are in no way least among the princes of Judah:
for out of you shall come forth a governor,
who shall shepherd my people, Israel."

But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
being small among the clans of Judah,
out of you one will come forth to me that is to be ruler in Israel;
whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.
[...]
He will deliver us from the Assyrian,
when he invades our land,
and when he marches within our border.

"Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah refers not to a town. It refers to the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah. The prophecy does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did. It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah by adding: "in the land of Juda" and removing "Ephratah". It appears as if he did this deliberately to make the verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan. Yes, the bible is full of beautiful, coherent, fulfilled prophesy like that.

[Cathar1950]

trencacloscas wrote:

If I were sure that I wouldn't be misinterpreted, I'd rather say that the Bible was written to torture Mankind.

I belive your right. Only to those that don't do what they are told and belive. There is this passage where it say the statutes of the Lord are perfect converting the soul..more precious then gold... something like that.
If this was written by David it was before the bible was written. Some think they just meant social codes in that area such as the Code of Hammurabi.
The 10 commandment and the other 600 some not being created until the Deuteronomist or after.

[bernee51]

Evoluion is not just individual - it is cultural and societal. It behoves communitues to work together towards a common goal.

The common goal being survival?

The common goal being to evolve - at all levels.

I believe I could make just as strong an argument for our differences in worldview leading to our destruction.

That is always a possibility - the universe and evolution is impersonal.

Men have more than a survival instinct -- they have a desire for power, domination, control. [/qiote]
That is he reason I asked about Maslow. The desires you talk about are thre to fulfil basic needs. These basic needs get translated in an 'inappropriate' way by neuroses

Are you familair with Maslow?

Studied him a little in college. His model is a workable one, but the human psyche is like the universe: we can explore but we cannot define. I was more a fan of Laszlo.

And which Laszlo would that be?

[Diana Holberg]

If the bible were a cohesive unified whole, one would expect that there would have been some foreshadowing of the "good-cop" aspect of the god in those passages where the god is portrayed as a "bad-cop". I may be quite dense at times, so I could not find where this issue was addressed in your previous posts. Could you provide a link?

It is in this post.

It has an unexplainable beauty when taken as a whole. But most people take it in pieces, like pieces of a jigsaw. It is unlikely that a jigsaw piece would be viewed as beautiful... no matter how lovely the picture when the puzzle is complete.

You cannot dissect Scripture and expect it to maintain its integrity. It is an organic whole. No matter how "many" pieces you pull out, they are just pieces. They are not the whole.

But since you are persistent, I will attempt to communicate the answer to your question. Jesus taught that God gave the Law to the Jews in part because of their "hardness of heart". I believe it was also this condition that caused them to interpret God's commands and words as they did, since this view is supported in many places in the New Testament.

This "hardness of heart" persisted and grew in the people up to the time of the prophet Malachi, who wrote of how the people "robbed God" by withholding tithes. Malachi writes entire chapters about the things that the people were doing in violation of or in insincere observance of the Law.

It was because of this behavior that God lifted His Spirit from His people for 400 years, and this is also why Jesus had to come into the world to become the sacrifice Himself. He not only shed His blood to make due payment, but He also left us with His teachings -- His creative Word -- and His Spirit to renew our hearts.

[Diana Holberg]

Why choose almost illiterate Jews and Greeks for such an important message?

I will make an exception to my general rule in this case and quote Scripture, for this passage so directly addresses your question:

• 1 Cor 1:26-31
  26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

[Diana Holberg]

It appears as if he did this deliberately to make the verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan. Yes, the bible is full of beautiful, coherent, fulfilled prophesy like that.

Matthew is not writing the Christian interpretation of those verses. He is writing the interpretation that the Jewish priests and scribes gave to Herod upon the king's request. I don't know about you, but I'm not one to second guess the Jews on their own interpretation of their own prophets.

[Diana Holberg]

And which Laszlo would that be?

Ervin Laszlo.