God created the devil to evoke us.

[pogonation]

Hear me out, and please do correct me wrong if i mis-quote any of these. This may be a jump to conclusion, but with rational steps.

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
1:27 So God created man in his own image
2:8 ...a tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So he creates both good and evil, opposing forces, created and claimed by Himself. With man in his image, with the possibility to sin.

2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

temptation is created. which is a 'tool' used by the devil...

2:19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky

3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals.

he created all on land and see...including the Serpent. With is a representation of the nature of the devil. Serpent = devil.
So God created all in the beginning, including the devil.

He create man to be of his own free will, but also the will to sin, now why would God create sin, which is a temptation derived by the devil, created by God.
So if all was to start with is God, then God created man in his image, able to sin, but yet isn't God pure of all sin and temptation, but yet he created it all.
I am not arguing the existence of God, but the nature of His own logic.

Please discuss any/all invalid point i may have concluded to.

(sorry for the poor spelling and grammar)

[bjhulk]

Hear me out, and please do correct me wrong if i mis-quote any of these. This may be a jump to conclusion, but with rational steps.

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
1:27 So God created man in his own image
2:8 ...a tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So he creates both good and evil, opposing forces, created and claimed by Himself. With man in his image, with the possibility to sin.

2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

temptation is created. which is a 'tool' used by the devil...

2:19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky

3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals.

he created all on land and see...including the Serpent. With is a representation of the nature of the devil. Serpent = devil.
So God created all in the beginning, including the devil.

He create man to be of his own free will, but also the will to sin, now why would God create sin, which is a temptation derived by the devil, created by God.
So if all was to start with is God, then God created man in his image, able to sin, but yet isn't God pure of all sin and temptation, but yet he created it all.
I am not arguing the existence of God, but the nature of His own logic.

Please discuss any/all invalid point i may have concluded to.

(sorry for the poor spelling and grammar)

The flesh of man is satan, devil, lucifer, serpent, wicked one, beast, thief, murderer, the dead, etc.

God created man in his image, which is nothing but thoughts. God's first creation was light energy for his power to create man and everything else and this is the life of God. God formed the flesh from the elements of the earth and then breathed life into him, which means the brain of the flesh received the created thoughts of God that gave life to his flesh and made it function. Without these created thoughts, the flesh cannot function so we call it death.

[Wootah]

So he creates both good and evil, opposing forces, created and claimed by Himself. With man in his image, with the possibility to sin.

Evil can't be created. It is only a corruption of good.

temptation is created. which is a 'tool' used by the devil...

A rule was created. I guess it was tempting, I think God is tempting. Mostly I think the tree was a device to accelerate our fall and in a way I think the triviality of the rule shows how sinful we are.

he created all on land and see...including the Serpent. With is a representation of the nature of the devil. Serpent = devil.
So God created all in the beginning, including the devil.

The serpent was an animal. The devil was an angel. Both were created good.

He create man to be of his own free will, but also the will to sin, now why would God create sin, which is a temptation derived by the devil, created by God.

You can't have one without the other.

So if all was to start with is God, then God created man in his image, able to sin, but yet isn't God pure of all sin and temptation, but yet he created it all.
I am not arguing the existence of God, but the nature of His own logic.

It seems to me that God values us so much that he created us anyway knowing what we were and offered a way for us to be reconciled with him.

Please discuss any/all invalid point i may have concluded to.

I did

(sorry for the poor spelling and grammar)

It's the internet.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

...
Please discuss any/all invalid point i may have concluded to.

Assuming the bible to be a reliable document regarding the god in question, and then wondering about inconsistencies.

[Goat]

So he creates both good and evil, opposing forces, created and claimed by Himself. With man in his image, with the possibility to sin.

Evil can't be created. It is only a corruption of good.

I would love for you to show there is a scriptural basis for this statement. I won't ask you to 'prove' it, since I think it is unprovable, but I ask you to provide a scriptural basis for this claim.

[JehovahsWitness]

why would God create sin ...

God didn't "create sin".

Temptation is not sin, the bible explains sin is lawlessness or "crime" (breaking God's law).

God created a law and humans (Adam & Eve) chose to break that law. Thus if anyone "created" sin, it was them.

the devil, created by God..

DID GOD MAKE THE DEVIL?

He didn't God made a perfect angel that made himself a devil. The word devil means "slanderer" (like a liar). When does someone become a liar? When they are born? Are there two types of babies normal babies and liar babies? Or rather don't we make ourselves a liar by lying.

God made an angels who, like all his intelligent creatures had the choice to do good or do bad.

But if this angel had an evil thought, didn't someone have to put it there? Not necessarily. We are designed to self generate thoughts independent of our environment or input. These "random" thoughts are what make up a working mind. A perfect mind isn't one that cannot conceive of an evil act but one that does not entertain or harbour any intention of carrying out an evil act.

So why would a perfect God make angels knowing they COULD go bad? The possibility of good and bad is an integral part of being a free moral agent. Blocking any ability to make negative choices is effectively making you a robot. God made spirits (and humans) in his image, like 'little gods' and in doing so gave them the wonderful ability of experiencing life like him; but with that came the unique responsibility of having to answer for the choices made.

But if God knew that that angel would become a liar, isn't God responsible. Not really, being able to tell the future doesn't necessarily mean you make the future, just because you can flip to the last page in a book without reading from the first chapter, doesn't mean you WROTE the book. We all write the books of our own lives. And our creator "reads" us a page at a time.

So has God predetermined everyone's future? No. God is very selective about exercising this power (as indeed he is with all his abilities). If it would be unkind or unjust to do something God doesn't do it, thus alhtough god CAN predetermin everything about everyone's life, he has clearly chosen not to since he appeals for humans to make the right choice (something that would be hypocritical of God to do if he had already determined you could not).Just as living in the future is not a problem for an omnipotent, omniscient god, living in the moment is not a problem for him either.



JW


RELATED POSTS


Will there be any long lasting negative effects of the permission of evil?
viewtopic.php?p=1108143#p1108143

[Wootah]

So he creates both good and evil, opposing forces, created and claimed by Himself. With man in his image, with the possibility to sin.

Evil can't be created. It is only a corruption of good.

I would love for you to show there is a scriptural basis for this statement. I won't ask you to 'prove' it, since I think it is unprovable, but I ask you to provide a scriptural basis for this claim.

Just reply with one created evil to counter my assertion. I don't think I need a scriptural basis to argue from a philosophical basis.

[Goat]

So he creates both good and evil, opposing forces, created and claimed by Himself. With man in his image, with the possibility to sin.

Evil can't be created. It is only a corruption of good.

I would love for you to show there is a scriptural basis for this statement. I won't ask you to 'prove' it, since I think it is unprovable, but I ask you to provide a scriptural basis for this claim.

Just reply with one created evil to counter my assertion. I don't think I need a scriptural basis to argue from a philosophical basis.

Ah, shifting the burden of proof, are we?? That's ok.. I have scriptural basis to refute that.

Isiah 45:7 Judiaca press tanach translation

7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

[Filthy Tugboat]

why would God create sin ...

God didn't "create sin".

Temptation is not sin, the bible explains sin is lawlessness or "crime" (breaking God's law).

God created a law and humans (Adam & Eve) chose to break that law. Thus if anyone "created" sin, it was them.

Could you place all of the blame on the humans though? Look at it in detail, God created people in a world without evil and death. Deception being a proponent of evil would be unheard of. Then God placed in the Garden a creature who was both able and willing to deceive Adam and Eve. How can you blame these gullible(for lack of a better word) beings who had absolutely no concept of punishment or even crime for breaking a rule. The scirpture even shows their lack of knowledge, they do not look at the punishments for their actions or even the consequences of their relationship with God, they just hear what they think to be a pretty sweet deal and they take it. If you really want to blame something for the fall of humanity, you would have to blame God for creating a scenario that was designed for the humans to fail. Hell, he's the one that gave them curiosity in the first place and aspiration (they aspired to be like God).

the devil, created by God..

DID GOD MAKE THE DEVIL?

He didn't God made a perfect angel that made himself a devil. The word devil means "slanderer" (like a liar). When does someone become a liar? When they are born? Are there two types of babies normal babies and liar babies? Or rather don't we make ourselves a liar by lying.

Now you are removing the intent to create specificity as well as God's knowledge from the equation. God creates these beings with the very fundamental traits they possess. If one is curious or ambitious or even deceptive then one can only attriute those traits to God. If God makes these individuals intentionally and with purpose then one must add his knowledge into the equation, he knows how they will turn out and creates them specifically. There are an infinite of possible ways a being could turn out but the way they do turn out either requires randomness or intention.

Also, if the angel was perfect then the Angel could not ever become imperfect. If perfection ties this being to God then they would never untie their knot with God. Simple definition of perfect.

God made an angels who, like all his intelligent creatures had the choice to do good or do bad.

If good is attributed to perfection then no, a perfect being could not ever be bad.

But if this angel had an evil thought, didn't someone have to put it there? Not necessarily. We are designed to self generate thoughts independent of our environment or input. These "random" thoughts are what make up a working mind. A perfect mind isn't one that cannot conceive of an evil act but one that does not entertain or harbour any intention of carrying out an evil act.

Yes they are what make up a working mind, who designed how our mind works... Oh that's right... According to the Bible it was God. Also, by your own admission here, Lucifer if he was perfect (as you said earlier) would be incapable of entertaining any intention to do bad.

So why would a perfect God make angels knowing they COULD go bad? The possibility of good and bad is an integral part of being a free moral agent. Blocking any ability to make negative choices is effectively making you a robot. God made spirits (and humans) in his image, like 'little gods' and in doing so gave them the wonderful ability of experiencing life like him; but with that came the unique responsibility of having to answer for the choices made.

And it comes back to the concept of did God create these beings with intent or through a random proccess? This proccess could not be entirely random as these beings seem to share a vast majority of their traits which would imply that all of the base similarities between them would be intentional. The rest could be random or intentional.

But if God knew that that angel would become a liar, isn't God responsible. Not really, being able to tell the future doesn't necessarily mean you make the future, just because you can flip to the last page in a book without reading from the first chapter, doesn't mean you WROTE the book. We all write the books of our own lives. And our creator "reads" us a page at a time.

Now we're back to ignoring God's role in the story, your analogy is a very poor representation of God's role in The Bible's depiction of reality.

So has God predetermined everyone's future? No. God is very selective about exercising this power (as indeed he is with all his abilities). If it would be unkind or unjust to do something God doesn't do it, thus alhtough god CAN predetermin everything about everyone's life, he has clearly chosen not to since he appeals for humans to make the right choice (something that would be hypocritical of God to do if he had already determined you could not).Just as living in the future is not a problem for an omnipotent, omniscient god, living in the moment is not a problem for him either.

I personally feel (and others agree) that logically the future must be predetermined as randomness is impossible for a being such as God (omnipotent, omniscient, perfect and the creator of all). I also feel the Bible agree's with me on this point. Romans 9 :14-24 should be adequate to explain the Bible's depiction of how God controls everything.

[JehovahsWitness]

How could God blame Adam and Eve for breaking his law when they had absolutely no concept of punishment or even crime?

Even a child of three can grasp the concept of "do not touch!". Adam and Eve were neither children nor were they mentally incompetent. They were more than capable of grasping the concept of "law and punishment" since it had been explained to them in clear and simple terms of "cause and effect". They were well able to grasp the notion of "cause and effect" since they lived in the material world were heat resulted in warmth, blows resulted in pain and eating resulted in a feeling of satisfaction and fullness". They were therefore capable of fully grasping that breaking this law would *cause* punishment. A clear explicit law was obviously comprehenisble to their perfect minds.

Did they comprehend the notion of death as punishment?

Adam and Eve had seen and could comprehend what death was since they had seen animals die, decompose and be reduced to "dust". God had clearly explained that should they touch the forbidden fruit THAT (death) would be the punishment. Further God explained what that would "feel like" indicating they would "return" to a state of inexistence comparable to before they were created. There is no reason they could not grasp what the death penelty meant. None of us, even today, know what it feels like to die but we don't have to be put in an electric chair and have 50,000 volts put through us to know we don't want it and respect the laws that could result in such a punishment (or move out of Texas, which ever we feel most inclined to do).

Gullible, Stupid or Wicked?

The bible does in fact speak of Eve being "deceived". This does not mean that she was incapable of grasping what she was expected to do, but that she figured that there were advantages to be had in breaking what she knew was a law. To illustrate: A bank robber may KNOW and UNDERSTAND the law but may figure that robbing a bank will procure him advantages that are worth the risk. Whether Eve figured she could somehow, like the bank robber, avoid punishment or that living the high life would be worth her eventual end we cannot say. But what we can say is by repeating the law verbatum before she broke it, she understood the issues involved and what she was doing.

Adam on the other hand is held entirely and solely responsible for his actions. There is no indication he didn't understand what he was doing but chose to throw his fate in with his wife. Since this single act guaranteed the death of any future children he had it was indeed a wicked act of selfishness. If a pregnant woman that smokes, knowing what it will do to her unborn child, "because she wants to" is viewed as selfish and stupid, what of parents that, fully informed and aware a single act would mean their children would be born with an incurable illness, go ahead. Most would deemed such an open declaration of open rebellion both wicked and selfish. Adam and Eve both justifiably punished as they had been forwarned they would be.

If you really want to blame something for the fall of humanity, you would have to blame God for creating a scenario that was designed for the humans to fail.

Where Adam and Eve "set up for failure"?

Today all humans are imperfect meaning we have a natural inclination to disobey and are incapable of keeping God's law perfectly. Like a shopping trolly with a wonky leg, we "bear to the left" and constantly have to reajust our actions to stay in line with God's standards. Adam and Eve however had no such defect. In fact they had to "force" themselves to do wrong.

Further they were in perfect condidtions; God did not put any negative elements in the Garden. Their only teacher was He himself, and they were able to literally speak and hear the voice of the Maker. His loving provisions for them, rather than favoring eventual rebellion, make it easier for them to love and obey their Maker.

To illustrate: A young man loves and has a good relationship with his father. His father has helped and provided for him, proved to be a loving and reasonable head and a good husband and provider for his wife and children. Would you say that that father has therefore "set his family up" to believe him (the father) a liar and make disobeying some basic and reasonable house rules *inevitable*? What if the family were perfect, had a natural inclination to love and obey him and had nothing to gain (but everything to lose) from such rebellion. They may well STILL rebel, but is it reasonable or even logical to blame the father and say "well, it was BOUND to happen sooner or later... all those good meals, all that loving attention, all that kindness, naturally the family would rebel, he was setting himself up for it..."


Are perfect people capable of perfect obediance?

Until Jesus there would be no way to settle this question. All humans have been born imperfect (see above). Jesus however proved once and for all time that perfect obediance is indeed possible from a perfect human thus Adam and Eve were capable, had they been determined to, to stay loyal and obey the law.

Further faithful IMPERFECT individuals have since proved that even under the thread of toruture and death, disobedience to God is far from inevitable.

he [God]'s the one that gave them curiosity in the first place

Some have argued that "natural curiousity" would have inevitably lead Adam and Eve to sin

As perfect adult humans with an inclination to do good, "curiosity" would no more have been a factor in breaking God's law as a normal human in good mental health would hack his own hand off to see how far the blood would squirt.

While humans are naturally "curious" and this is not a bad thing, we also have a natural inborn inner gauge of right or wrong (even in our imperfect state) which renders certain actions inacceptable regardless of how "curious" we might be. No court would accept "I killed the baby because I was *curious* as to what it's final screams would sound like" Curiosity is neither a defence for Adam and Eve's actions nor a reason to conclude the law was unreasonable.

Further, there is no indication that the tree was unique in its kind (it may well have been one pear/apple/orange tree in amongst many) and there is nothing in scripture that indicates Adam and Eve ate because they were "curious about what it would taste like.

[God]knows how they will turn out and creates them specifically. There are an infinite of possible ways a being could turn out but the way they do turn out either requires randomness or intention.

This statement implies God cannot "intentionally" create intelligent creatures like himself that can self generate motives and actions and can by reason of this, determine their own destiny. God has in fact done just that and, while "staking things" decidedly in favour of a good right and just outcome, has left his intelligent creatures to write the rest of the story. Random implies he had no imput, intention implies he controls the outcome. While he is capable of doing both he has clearly chosen to do niether.

QUESTION: Did God know beforehand that Eve would sin? Not necessarily, God may well have chosen not too look into Adam and Eve's future but to experience life with humans in "real time", limiting his exercise of power and living in the moment with them. Like parents that find their child's diary but choose not to read it (even though they CAN) because doing so would be a violation of that childs right to privacy. In any case we know God always uses his powers and abilities in a fair and just way. If it would have been unfair to see what Eve would do before she did it, God was capable of not doing that thing.

...if the angel was perfect then the Angel could not ever become imperfect. If perfection ties this being to God then they would never untie their knot with God. Simple definition of perfect... If good is attributed to perfection then no, a perfect being could not ever be bad.

I don't know where you get YOUR definition of "perfection" but it's not biblical (or even logical).

If God made his creatures perfect, why were they CAPABLE of sin?

As I previously pointed out, only a perfect ROBOT would be incapable of doing bad due to being programed thus. Being non-robotic doesn't equate with having a bug or malfuntioning. Biblically speaking, perfection does not mean incapable of becoming imperfect but being in a complete and faultless state, capable of doing what you were created to do. To illustrate: in this sense a *perfect* car would be one that is without fault, a scratch or a mark, in optimum operational condition. Could a *perfect* car run over a baby? By virtue of WHAT it is, (a heavy fast moving object) it has the potential to give pleasure and even save lifes (transporting people to hospital) or kill. If handled badly it can be crashed and destroyed or cause harm. If handled as the designer intended, it will not. This doesn't stop the instrument being faultless (perfect). God created other powerful "self driven" self motivated beings like himself. They were without default and in perfect moral and physical condition. The bible definition does not mean however they were not capable of driving recklessly, only that if they DID they alone would be responsible for this since it wasn't a moral inevitability.

by your own admission here, Lucifer if he was perfect (as you said earlier) would be incapable of entertaining any intention to do bad.

I said nothing of the kind.

I personally feel (and others agree) that logically the future must be predetermined as randomness is impossible for a being such as God (omnipotent, omniscient, perfect and the creator of all).

It has been proposed by some that "omniscience, omnipotence** & free will are impossible all at the same time." Is this true?

Is omnipotence AND omniscient even possible?

Looking at it logically, if omnipotence is the ability to do anything, then the question in itself becomes nonsensical. Its like asking "can a toaster that can toast anything, toast toast?"

Omnipotence means that the impossible becomes possible. In other words, once you are omnipotent you can combine what cannot be combined and make it work. Put simply, God can do anything INCLUDING be selective in the use of his use of powers.

To illustrate: God has infinite power, he CAN destroy everyone and everything. Has he chosen to do so? No, he has clearly chosen to not use his powers in this way. He has, in short been selective in how he uses this power.

In the same way, God can control or limit his use of any of his capacities including that of foreknowledge. He is not subject to his powers, his powers are subject to him. Thus if Almighty God chooses to not know about certain things he is free and perfectly capable of doing so.

Further reading
http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.co ... sence.html

I also feel the Bible agree's with me on this point. Romans 9 :14-24 should be adequate to explain the Bible's depiction of how God controls everything.

Some have suggested that Romans Chapter nine supports the teaching that God predestines individuals lives, however the verses do no support this teaching.

ROMANS 9: 14 - 18

Mercy depends on God not on the individual. Just as someone cannot force a judge to lighten their sentence once they have been found guilty of a crime, God declares in these opening verses that his mercy will be extended according to his will. Obviously an individual that is repentent and expresses a sincere desire to comply to divine law has more of a chance than one that will not but nothing in the verses support the teaching that one is predetermined to face divine wrath.

How did God "harden" Pharoah's heart (Ex. 7:3, 4) ?

God did not actually harden the heart of Pharaoh so that Pharaoh lost his free will making change impossible and his fate unavoidable. The bible often speaks about God "doing" things that he in fact allows or permits. Jehovah "hardened" the Egyptian kings heart in that he allowed his stubborn character to be revealed.

As with Pharoah God can read the heart and someone's inclination towards bad (or good) beforehand but this doesn not mean they are incapable of changing. Take for example the case of Cain who killed his brother Abel. Even before this terrible act, God read his heart and saw that if he didn't change it would lead to disaster. What did God do? He tried to warn Cain of the badness he saw in his heart and help him to change.

Pharoah of Egypt, Esau and many others have ignored God warnings and followed an bad path, this was not predetermined but their individual decision and if "God saw it coming" like a parent that 'knows' his rebellious child will (if he doesn't change) end up in a bad situation, this does not mean it was beyond their power to change.


ROMANS 9: 19- 21 THE POTTER & THE MOLD

The bible on serveral occassions likens God to a potter and humans like the mold. Far from indicating that humans have no free will it is merely illustrating how vastly superior God is to humans. Paul introduces the thought by saying "who has withstood his express will?" He is thus showing that, like clay in a potter's hand, his will or purpose will be fulfilled and any "stubborn lumps" that fail to comply with be thrown out.

ROMANS 9: 22-24 VESSELS OF WRATH FIT FOR DESTRUCTION

Paul doesn't name individuals but identifies GROUPS that will be destroyed, he classifies those that show a defiant rebellious spirit as "vessels of wrath" and shows that God has a chosen people that as a group are classfied as "vessels of mercy". This doesn't mean individuals are "made" or created and their fate sealed rather that God has predetermined to destroy the wicked and anyone that choses to defy Him will indeed face this end and determined to save obedient humans and anyone that choses to comply to his standards can be in the latter. God "fixed" the groups WE decide (though our actions) which one we will be put in.


Further reading
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050115/article_02.htm