Prayer is a waste.

[Tymygy]

The irrational and nonsensical thought of a futuristic greater purpose dilutes us from taking action for what truly matters. An atheist like me, will take action rather then say a prayer and hope for the best. (see my signature)

Maybe for some people it is a last resort, when there is absolutely nothing they can do, they pray. but for those who pray, and who have opportunity to do something yet don't I find troubling. They place everything on a God, who (occording to my experience) has never done anything. I've prayed so much in my life, and maybe 10% got answered..? And of that 10% I can relate to naturual phenomena.

So what are peoples views of prayer here? Any remarks on my OP?

[sarabellum]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that pray is a waste.....
Regardless if their is anyone "out" there who actually listens to pray...
Prayer in my experience can lead to a sense of peace and reduce stress....
This may be seen as good for the human body....

My problem with the idea of pray is that when combined with my understanding of the nature of the Christian God it seems paradoxical....

If God knows the future and how everything will unfold can a righteous man change that through pray.....
Can anyone change Gods plan?

If Gods plan is unfolding as he saw it from the begging it is hard for me to understand how his elect can really effect the outcome of what he has already foreseen or planned on....

If it is not in Gods plan for a particular righteous man to move a mountain then it won't happen....
If it is already in Gods plan then it seems to me that it will happen without the prayer to cause it....

I think I will change my name from Sara to Confused....

[Shermana]

Prayer is an act of humility and a test of a human will. A direct communication, a form of protocol and a display of allegiance and acceptance of the Reality of Providence. Otherwise, the "prayer of the wicked is an abomination." God knows the future of what will happen based on what happens from free will, but if He were completely omniscient and knew every single thing that would happen, there would be no such thing as Free will. He tells the Kings of Israel that they will be great if they are good, and the Kingdom will be shattered if they aren't. It does not mean that each King was guaranteed to be righteous. Did the Lord know if David would have Uriah killed to take Bath'shaba? Perhaps he had the idea but let David prove himself to be a sinner. Testing with snares.

People are capable of changing from rightoeus to sin, the Lord certainly knows what is in the heart of a person, but Free will and Divine reaction and reward based on human free will is only a limitation of logic in the sense that God cannot make a Square Triangle. God knows what men are thinking, but if He knew everything that would happen, His omniscience would itself be a limitation to potential possibility of free outcomes.

[sarabellum]

I wasn't aware that there was a partial omnipotence/omniscient....

I'll have to think on that...(omni?)

[AmazingJesusIs]

Prayer is an act of humility and a test of a human will. A direct communication, a form of protocol and a display of allegiance and acceptance of the Reality of Providence. Otherwise, the "prayer of the wicked is an abomination." God knows the future of what will happen based on what happens from free will, but if He were completely omniscient and knew every single thing that would happen, there would be no such thing as Free will. He tells the Kings of Israel that they will be great if they are good, and the Kingdom will be shattered if they aren't. It does not mean that each King was guaranteed to be righteous. Did the Lord know if David would have Uriah killed to take Bath'shaba? Perhaps he had the idea but let David prove himself to be a sinner. Testing with snares.

People are capable of changing from rightoeus to sin, the Lord certainly knows what is in the heart of a person, but Free will and Divine reaction and reward based on human free will is only a limitation of logic in the sense that God cannot make a Square Triangle. God knows what men are thinking, but if He knew everything that would happen, His omniscience would itself be a limitation to potential possibility of free outcomes.

This is why there are no "possibilities." Everything is going to happen because it's the way God planned it, and nothing can change the future that God built.

God can make a square triangle, by the way... Luke 1:37, "For nothing is impossible with God."

[realthinker]

Prayer is an act of humility and a test of a human will. A direct communication, a form of protocol and a display of allegiance and acceptance of the Reality of Providence. Otherwise, the "prayer of the wicked is an abomination." God knows the future of what will happen based on what happens from free will, but if He were completely omniscient and knew every single thing that would happen, there would be no such thing as Free will. He tells the Kings of Israel that they will be great if they are good, and the Kingdom will be shattered if they aren't. It does not mean that each King was guaranteed to be righteous. Did the Lord know if David would have Uriah killed to take Bath'shaba? Perhaps he had the idea but let David prove himself to be a sinner. Testing with snares.

People are capable of changing from rightoeus to sin, the Lord certainly knows what is in the heart of a person, but Free will and Divine reaction and reward based on human free will is only a limitation of logic in the sense that God cannot make a Square Triangle. God knows what men are thinking, but if He knew everything that would happen, His omniscience would itself be a limitation to potential possibility of free outcomes.

This is why there are no "possibilities." Everything is going to happen because it's the way God planned it, and nothing can change the future that God built.

God can make a square triangle, by the way... Luke 1:37, "For nothing is impossible with God."

Wow. How would we tell the difference? How do we know WE haven't been making square triangles for centuries? In fact, I think i was using square triangles when I was making paper airplanes with my son yesterday. I'm going to have to check that out.

[wonderer]

Prayer is an act of humility and a test of a human will. A direct communication, a form of protocol and a display of allegiance and acceptance of the Reality of Providence. Otherwise, the "prayer of the wicked is an abomination." God knows the future of what will happen based on what happens from free will, but if He were completely omniscient and knew every single thing that would happen, there would be no such thing as Free will. He tells the Kings of Israel that they will be great if they are good, and the Kingdom will be shattered if they aren't. It does not mean that each King was guaranteed to be righteous. Did the Lord know if David would have Uriah killed to take Bath'shaba? Perhaps he had the idea but let David prove himself to be a sinner. Testing with snares.

People are capable of changing from rightoeus to sin, the Lord certainly knows what is in the heart of a person, but Free will and Divine reaction and reward based on human free will is only a limitation of logic in the sense that God cannot make a Square Triangle. God knows what men are thinking, but if He knew everything that would happen, His omniscience would itself be a limitation to potential possibility of free outcomes.

If God doesn't know what's going to happen he's not omniscient. According to the Bible he IS omniscient. Therefore according to the Bible, God does know everything that's going to happen. If that means there is no such thing as free will, so be it.

[Shermana]

If God doesn't know what's going to happen he's not omniscient. According to the Bible he IS omniscient. Therefore according to the Bible, God does know everything that's going to happen. If that means there is no such thing as free will, so be it.

Please quote some specific verses that speak of God knowing all things that will happen by every single person as opposed to say national events that are caused by their willful disobedience which he even warns he is planing for them if they don't repent with prophets he sends for them ANNOUNCING his will if they don't turn from their sins.

Does it not say that the Lord punished the Babylonians for going harder on the Israelites than he intended?

[mitty]

The irrational and nonsensical thought of a futuristic greater purpose dilutes us from taking action for what truly matters. An atheist like me, will take action rather then say a prayer and hope for the best. (see my signature)

Maybe for some people it is a last resort, when there is absolutely nothing they can do, they pray. but for those who pray, and who have opportunity to do something yet don't I find troubling. They place everything on a God, who (occording to my experience) has never done anything. I've prayed so much in my life, and maybe 10% got answered..? And of that 10% I can relate to naturual phenomena.

So what are peoples views of prayer here? Any remarks on my OP?

You do understand that this sub-forum is for the debating of theology, doctrine, and dogma, right? Not the existence of God, or if He hears prayers.

You have not been blessed with salvation, and I will pray for you, that God shows his salvific grace on you. An unregenerate man cannot begin to understand the smallest thing about God or His Word. I refuse to debate the Bible and theology with unsaved people. It's pointless.

That sounds like some sort of omniscient knowledge and power. I guess such claims of omnisciency are allowable (Exodus 20:3) provided one doesn't overstep the mark and remembers who is before one, otherwise one would have to be pretty fleet footed to dodge those lightening bolts from above, methinks. But then, there are also warnings about self-rightiousness (Luke 13:30).

So you believe that prayer isn't just a form of talking to yourself. That there is some meaning in this on-off dialogue with this daiety, which is the same as other forms of communication like emails, telephone conversations, the mail etc. That makes no sense to me if this daiety is omniscient and can continually monitor and analyse your brain functioning including the sub-conscious componants. So any nasty thoughts about my posting would be monitored not just the ones one wants to share with this daiety.

[mitty]

Prayer is an act of humility and a test of a human will. A direct communication, a form of protocol and a display of allegiance and acceptance of the Reality of Providence. Otherwise, the "prayer of the wicked is an abomination." God knows the future of what will happen based on what happens from free will, but if He were completely omniscient and knew every single thing that would happen, there would be no such thing as Free will. He tells the Kings of Israel that they will be great if they are good, and the Kingdom will be shattered if they aren't. It does not mean that each King was guaranteed to be righteous. Did the Lord know if David would have Uriah killed to take Bath'shaba? Perhaps he had the idea but let David prove himself to be a sinner. Testing with snares.

People are capable of changing from rightoeus to sin, the Lord certainly knows what is in the heart of a person, but Free will and Divine reaction and reward based on human free will is only a limitation of logic in the sense that God cannot make a Square Triangle. God knows what men are thinking, but if He knew everything that would happen, His omniscience would itself be a limitation to potential possibility of free outcomes.

This is why there are no "possibilities." Everything is going to happen because it's the way God planned it, and nothing can change the future that God built.

God can make a square triangle, by the way... Luke 1:37, "For nothing is impossible with God."

Wow. How would we tell the difference? How do we know WE haven't been making square triangles for centuries? In fact, I think i was using square triangles when I was making paper airplanes with my son yesterday. I'm going to have to check that out.

Good old Calvanism, where everything has been pre-destined. Where only a few have been chosen at the time of creation, and if you're not one of the self-rightious, then it doesn't matter a toss what you do, you ain't gonna get a ticket. That's why it was fine for Joshua and Moses to commit crimes-against-humanity and butcher innocent children (Joshua 6:21 8:26 Ch 10, Numbers 31) and blame their atrocities on some imagined bronze-age god. Sounds like an excellent reason to believe, eh.

[wonderer]

If God doesn't know what's going to happen he's not omniscient. According to the Bible he IS omniscient. Therefore according to the Bible, God does know everything that's going to happen. If that means there is no such thing as free will, so be it.

Please quote some specific verses that speak of God knowing all things that will happen by every single person as opposed to say national events that are caused by their willful disobedience which he even warns he is planing for them if they don't repent with prophets he sends for them ANNOUNCING his will if they don't turn from their sins.

Does it not say that the Lord punished the Babylonians for going harder on the Israelites than he intended?

Isaiah 46:9

I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done.

Psalm 139:4

Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according go His purpose. 29) For whom He fore knew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30) and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world,
scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of
him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will


Is that enough?