Does human life have value?

[lastcallhall]

Christians base right and wrong on the Bible and a belief that human life has value because we are all made in God's image and that alone makes everyone worth something. For this thread let's assume the Bible is not worth the paper it is printed on. Let's also assume that there is no God at all and when you die the lights go out, the music stops, and the party is over. That being said here are my questions and please remember that for this thread God does not exist.

1. What gives human life value? If we evolved from the same thing everything else did are humans worth more than anything else?

2. If human life has value, why?

3. Can a secular government enforce a murder law because the majority of people think it's wrong? Why or why not?

4. Last question if I did not think human life had any special value would I be justified in being an assassin to get as much money for myself in this life so I have as much fun as I can before I die?

[bernee51]

Christians base right and wrong on the Bible and a belief that human life has value because we are all made in God's image and that alone makes everyone worth something. For this thread let's assume the Bible is not worth the paper it is printed on. Let's also assume that there is no God at all and when you die the lights go out, the music stops, and the party is over. That being said here are my questions and please remember that for this thread God does not exist.

1. What gives human life value?

Being born

If we evolved from the same thing everything else did are humans worth more than anything else?

If i am no different to anything else, how can my value be different?

2. If human life has value, why?

The opportunity to make life more worthwhile to others...to evolve ‘spirit’.

3. Can a secular government enforce a murder law because the majority of people think it's wrong? Why or why not?

Society evolves. The ethics of the society evolve. Is evolution ever wrong?

4. Last question if I did not think human life had any special value would I be justified in being an assassin to get as much money for myself in this life so I have as much fun as I can before I die?

Do you see this as value you would hold in your life? If not, why ask the question?

[catalyst]

1. What gives human life value?

I have to agree with Bernee51. - birth.

If we evolved from the same thing everything else did are humans worth more than anything else?

no.

2. If human life has value, why?

Capacity to love.

3. Can a secular government enforce a murder law because the majority of people think it's wrong? Why or why not?

I find this difficult to answer as in your scenario, you have only discounted the christian god model, not ALL god models. If ALL god models were taken out of the equation, I truly don't think there would be need for such a law. The reason I say that is, I have delved into cultural and social anthropology of societies predating the god models we know of, and the concept of "offing" one and other didn't come into the equation. That of course can only be read by bones etc ...found of said era, but of all found, death was pretty much of natural cause, rather than of external to self trauma.

4. Last question if I did not think human life had any special value would I be justified in being an assassin to get as much money for myself in this life so I have as much fun as I can before I die?

As you are a human and you found no value in human life, why not just commit suicide? Also, what makes you think that the "almighty dollar" (or perhaps shekel) would have any value in a NO GOD model EVER oriented society?

[Filthy Tugboat]

1. What gives human life value?

Really, you'd have to define value. Like, what is the relationship between human life and value for this question?

If we evolved from the same thing everything else did are humans worth more than anything else?

I can't see why they would be in any objective sense, often to the individual they are more important than most others. However a lot of animals(humans included) share a common trait of sacrificing their lives trying to save their young, hell some species even have the children eat their own mother, so clearly the value may be less about self and more about species for some animals. Bee's are another good example, sacrifice themselves for the queen.

2. If human life has value, why?

Does human life have value beyond themselves?

3. Can a secular government enforce a murder law because the majority of people think it's wrong? Why or why not?

As far as I'm aware, that's how laws are made and governments are meant to operate, they follow the power of the nation, which often times comes from the majority of people.

4. Last question if I did not think human life had any special value would I be justified in being an assassin to get as much money for myself in this life so I have as much fun as I can before I die?

I'm presuming in this scenario that you give yourself a higher value than others, you treasure your own life above everybody else. It more or less seems that in this scenario you are in control of your actions and the lack of value you associate with others makes their life nothing more than an obstacle. If someone offers you money for killing one of these people you would have no problem with it as the value of their life is the equivalent to the bug you sprayed earlier this morning. You would just as happily kill someone for cash as you would deliver a parcel. The only justification would be from the individual, obviously someone like myself who does not indulge in such a lifestyle would not consider your actions justified but I do consider life to be valuable.

[lastcallhall]

1. What gives human life value?

Being born

If we evolved from the same thing everything else did are humans worth more than anything else?

If i am no different to anything else, how can my value be different?

2. If human life has value, why?

The opportunity to make life more worthwhile to others...to evolve ‘spirit’.

3. Can a secular government enforce a murder law because the majority of people think it's wrong? Why or why not?

Society evolves. The ethics of the society evolve. Is evolution ever wrong?

4. Last question if I did not think human life had any special value would I be justified in being an assassin to get as much money for myself in this life so I have as much fun as I can before I die?

Do you see this as value you would hold in your life? If not, why ask the question?[/quote][/quote]

I ask the question because I have always wondered from a totally secular point of view why life has value. My follow up is if we are no different from animals should we not try deer hunters for murder? (please don't take this as anything but an honest question)

[lastcallhall]

3. Can a secular government enforce a murder law because the majority of people think it's wrong? Why or why not?

I find this difficult to answer as in your scenario, you have only discounted the christian god model, not ALL god models. If ALL god models were taken out of the equation, I truly don't think there would be need for such a law. The reason I say that is, I have delved into cultural and social anthropology of societies predating the god models we know of, and the concept of "offing" one and other didn't come into the equation. That of course can only be read by bones etc ...found of said era, but of all found, death was pretty much of natural cause, rather than of external to self trauma.

I am sorry I did mean to say that for this thread let's say it was a proven fact there is no God at all. I would say communist Russia and China have killed many people without doing any of it in God's name.

4. Last question if I did not think human life had any special value would I be justified in being an assassin to get as much money for myself in this life so I have as much fun as I can before I die?

As you are a human and you found no value in human life, why not just commit suicide? Also, what makes you think that the "almighty dollar" (or perhaps shekel) would have any value in a NO GOD model EVER oriented society?

[/quote]

I am not saying money does have more value in a totally secular society that is why I asked the question. I have always thought if there was no God why would I not want the best lifestyle I could possibly have without regard for anyone else. I think history shows many men have tried to grab money and power that did not believe in God

[lastcallhall]

1. What gives human life value?

Really, you'd have to define value. Like, what is the relationship between human life and value for this question?

Sorry, I define value as something of worth or something worth fighting for. Your life would be worse off without that person or thing, something of worth adds in a positive way to your life.

If we evolved from the same thing everything else did are humans worth more than anything else?

I can't see why they would be in any objective sense, often to the individual they are more important than most others. However a lot of animals(humans included) share a common trait of sacrificing their lives trying to save their young, hell some species even have the children eat their own mother, so clearly the value may be less about self and more about species for some animals. Bee's are another good example, sacrifice themselves for the queen.

I was trying to get are human lives more valuable or worth more than say the bee's life?

2. If human life has value, why?

Does human life have value beyond themselves?

3. Can a secular government enforce a murder law because the majority of people think it's wrong? Why or why not?

As far as I'm aware, that's how laws are made and governments are meant to operate, they follow the power of the nation, which often times comes from the majority of people.

I was trying to ask if we agree for this thread it was totally proven God does not exist would it be fair to restrict me from killing something I didn't see had value? Would the laws be made by majority rules?

4. Last question if I did not think human life had any special value would I be justified in being an assassin to get as much money for myself in this life so I have as much fun as I can before I die?

I'm presuming in this scenario that you give yourself a higher value than others, you treasure your own life above everybody else. It more or less seems that in this scenario you are in control of your actions and the lack of value you associate with others makes their life nothing more than an obstacle. If someone offers you money for killing one of these people you would have no problem with it as the value of their life is the equivalent to the bug you sprayed earlier this morning. You would just as happily kill someone for cash as you would deliver a parcel. The only justification would be from the individual, obviously someone like myself who does not indulge in such a lifestyle would not consider your actions justified but I do consider life to be valuable.

Fair answer, thanks

[Filthy Tugboat]

1. What gives human life value?

Really, you'd have to define value. Like, what is the relationship between human life and value for this question?

Sorry, I define value as something of worth or something worth fighting for. Your life would be worse off without that person or thing, something of worth adds in a positive way to your life.

Well, I think your definition of value pretty much answers the question. Human life obtains value by the meaning it gives to others, this can even be true of other species. A child can grow with a dog and the dog can often times be very protective of that child, the child adds meaning to it's own life by the way it interacts with the dog. I couldn't tell you if human life (or any other animal for that matter) has any objective meaning but it certainly has meaning to the individuals and often times other humans and other animals as well. I could only ever look at this from a subjective point of view and consider the subjective opinions of others.

If we evolved from the same thing everything else did are humans worth more than anything else?

I can't see why they would be in any objective sense, often to the individual they are more important than most others. However a lot of animals(humans included) share a common trait of sacrificing their lives trying to save their young, hell some species even have the children eat their own mother, so clearly the value may be less about self and more about species for some animals. Bee's are another good example, sacrifice themselves for the queen.

I was trying to get are human lives more valuable or worth more than say the bee's life?

To the human in question, sure. To the humans and animals that are fond of the human, more than likely. To the bee and it's colony trying to protect the queen from what they perceive to be a threat, probably not.

3. Can a secular government enforce a murder law because the majority of people think it's wrong? Why or why not?

As far as I'm aware, that's how laws are made and governments are meant to operate, they follow the power of the nation, which often times comes from the majority of people.

I was trying to ask if we agree for this thread it was totally proven God does not exist would it be fair to restrict me from killing something I didn't see had value? Would the laws be made by majority rules?

That all depends on what that thing is and what it means to others, those others are the ones that might defend that thing, they can do this themselves or with violence, their response all really depends on how important that thing is to them. Legally, laws an be passed when enough influence is used. The way to obtain enough influence is often times to have the support of a large portion of people.

[Filthy Tugboat]

4. Last question if I did not think human life had any special value would I be justified in being an assassin to get as much money for myself in this life so I have as much fun as I can before I die?

As you are a human and you found no value in human life, why not just commit suicide? Also, what makes you think that the "almighty dollar" (or perhaps shekel) would have any value in a NO GOD model EVER oriented society?

I am not saying money does have more value in a totally secular society that is why I asked the question. I have always thought if there was no God why would I not want the best lifestyle I could possibly have without regard for anyone else. I think history shows many men have tried to grab money and power that did not believe in God

I never understood that. Many religious people I've spoken with regard life meaningless without God. Is this because of a dependence on God that without that faith everything would fall apart for them? Is it because you've never really considered the merits of life without God? Why does life lose meaning if faith in God was lost? History has also shown many men have tried to grab money and power that did believe in God. Rather meaningless to post either statement though really as it more speaks to the character of some people rather than any religious association(or lack there of).

[lastcallhall]

I am not saying money does have more value in a totally secular society that is why I asked the question. I have always thought if there was no God why would I not want the best lifestyle I could possibly have without regard for anyone else. I think history shows many men have tried to grab money and power that did not believe in God

I never understood that. Many religious people I've spoken with regard life meaningless without God. Is this because of a dependence on God that without that faith everything would fall apart for them? Is it because you've never really considered the merits of life without God? Why does life lose meaning if faith in God was lost? History has also shown many men have tried to grab money and power that did believe in God. Rather meaningless to post either statement though really as it more speaks to the character of some people rather than any religious association(or lack there of).[/quote][/quote]

It's off thread but I really mean no offense, one thing about me is I am a very curious person and figured I would ask a question I always wanted to. Me as a christian gives value to life because we are all made in God's image and that Jesus said the greatest commandment is love God and your neighbor as yourself. Before I found Jesus I really wasn't very nice to people and looked down sometimes on people who were less off than me. It was horrible but God's amazing grace really taught my heart to feel for people and to love on them. Anyway I agree there have been people in history that have grabbed power and money from all walks of life.