Ethics in General

[hrmm]

Why is ethics based entirely on Western concepts? There in a universal stance, ethics are nothing. They are just codes. As in, you could say that the holocaust wasn't a bad thing, because you believed it.

Discuss etc.

[dianaiad]

Why is ethics based entirely on Western concepts? There in a universal stance, ethics are nothing. They are just codes. As in, you could say that the holocaust wasn't a bad thing, because you believed it.

Discuss etc.

You are begging the question. What makes you think that 'ethics,' (The study of that which humans think is 'good' and 'evil') is based entirely on Western concepts?

Almost every culture has some idea of what 'good' and 'evil' may be; positive or negative aspects...whatever they may think is 'good' or 'not good.' "Ethics" is the study of those things, whatever they are.

[Choir Loft]

Why is ethics based entirely on Western concepts? There in a universal stance, ethics are nothing. They are just codes. As in, you could say that the holocaust wasn't a bad thing, because you believed it.

Discuss etc.

Ethics in America is a joke!

American behavior isn't based on anything at all. Western, eastern, northern or southern, there are no ethics, no 'stance', no codes, no LAW. Behavior is based on what one 'can get away with'.

It is illegal to teach ethics, which is why we don't have any.

A university math instructor can teach his students that 1 + 1 = 2 and that's it. Nobody can refute his word.
A history teacher can say that America became involved in WWII on December 7, 1941. That's it.
Nobody can refute his word.

BUT, should a professor dictate to his class that such and such a thing is right or wrong or that a thing is ethically abhorrent he will shortly find himself called before the dean and read the riot act. A student can actually file suit against an instructor for dictating behavior in light of ethics, morality, or some 'code'.

In point of fact NOBODY WANTS A CODE. Nobody wants ethical behavior to be dictated by society, religion or even the government.

Case in point. You've probably heard or read stories about the Ten Commandments being removed from a city court house. Lots of noise and lots of clammor by folks everywhere....especially the religious. But when was the last time you saw the ten commandments written on the wall inside a church?

Christians don't want any 'code'. Not really. Neither do the heathen.
We kill and rob and cheat one another with reckless abandon in America.
Teaching and practicing ethics is technically illegal and a cultural abomination.

So what's the fuss all about? As far as I can tell, the codeless masses in this country want their bankers and their politicans to play by the rules while they themselves merrily go about their business screwing each other on their own.

It's called hypocrisy and it crosses every religious, ideological and cultural barrier in America. The problem with hypocrits is that they are so busy pointing their crooked fingers at everybody else that they don't see their own booger hanging on it.

Will God judge us for our lack of morality and ethics? Why bother? All He has to do is let us do what we want to do in the first place....screw each other 'till there's nothing left.

[dianaiad]

Why is ethics based entirely on Western concepts? There in a universal stance, ethics are nothing. They are just codes. As in, you could say that the holocaust wasn't a bad thing, because you believed it.

Discuss etc.

Ethics in America is a joke!

American behavior isn't based on anything at all. Western, eastern, northern or southern, there are no ethics, no 'stance', no codes, no LAW. Behavior is based on what one 'can get away with'.

It is illegal to teach ethics, which is why we don't have any.

Odd.

At the moment I am taking a class called "Ethics in Journalism." I have completed several courses in ethics over my academic career. Nobody has arrested me yet.

Come to think of it, I have TAUGHT ethics to my high school students. Didn't get arrested for that, either.

On the other hand, having raised five kids, I have found that the best grounding in ethics is from parents, at home. If we have a problem with ethics, then--look to the parents, and look to THEIR parents. It doesn't matter how many classes in 'ethics' any school offers; if it isn't exemplified at home, it's not going to be practiced in public.

A university math instructor can teach his students that 1 + 1 = 2 and that's it. Nobody can refute his word.
A history teacher can say that America became involved in WWII on December 7, 1941. That's it.
Nobody can refute his word.

heh....wanna bet?

BUT, should a professor dictate to his class that such and such a thing is right or wrong or that a thing is ethically abhorrent he will shortly find himself called before the dean and read the riot act. A student can actually file suit against an instructor for dictating behavior in light of ethics, morality, or some 'code'.

Really? Read any academic policy statements lately? Been to BYU? Try not to let your bitterness get in the way of reality, my friend..you are beginning to sound like my father, and you ain't old enough.

In point of fact NOBODY WANTS A CODE. Nobody wants ethical behavior to be dictated by society, religion or even the government.

Case in point. You've probably heard or read stories about the Ten Commandments being removed from a city court house. Lots of noise and lots of clammor by folks everywhere....especially the religious. But when was the last time you saw the ten commandments written on the wall inside a church?

Mind you, I don't go to many churches other than my own, but it seems to me that if one is a Christian, having "do unto others..." on the wall is pretty good...and having the ten commandments in the bible is sufficient. I HAVE seen the Ten Commandments posted on the wall of at least one church, come to think of it.

Oh...

And they ARE on the wall of the US Supreme Court building.

..............and they are displayed in the courthouse here in town, too; right along with many other codes of justice that humanity has used.

Christians don't want any 'code'. Not really. Neither do the heathen.
We kill and rob and cheat one another with reckless abandon in America.
Teaching and practicing ethics is technically illegal and a cultural abomination.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong about that. It's not illegal, not even 'technically.' What IS illegal is to use a public classroom to proselyte for a specific religion. Now me, I'm about as conservative politically, and as loudmouthed a member of my belief system, as one could imagine....and the LAST thing I want is for some fundamentalist evangelistic 'born-again' sola scriptura/sola fidea-type bible thumper to tell my kids that they have to believe his way--in an English class. Shoot, those people don't even think I AM a Christian; you think I want one of 'em forcing their beliefs on me, or on my kids? Not a chance, sir.

So what's the fuss all about? As far as I can tell, the codeless masses in this country want their bankers and their politicans to play by the rules while they themselves merrily go about their business screwing each other on their own.

It's called hypocrisy and it crosses every religious, ideological and cultural barrier in America. The problem with hypocrits is that they are so busy pointing their crooked fingers at everybody else that they don't see their own booger hanging on it.

Will God judge us for our lack of morality and ethics? Why bother? All He has to do is let us do what we want to do in the first place....screw each other 'till there's nothing left.

I do hope that you have 'let it all out,' now, and feel much better for it.

Now look around, and see the many, many people who are ethical, moral, hard-working and loving. They ARE out there, really.....as are the pacifists, the sweet-natured and the optimists. .

And I say this, who am a "Tea Party" member, an NRA member (I don't own a gun...) who wouldn't join the AARP if they gave me a gold plated card--and thinks that Obama just MIGHT come to be known as ranking just under Buchanan in the list of the ten worst presidents in US History.

Finally: you think 'ethics' should be taught? Fine. Go teach some.

I promise, you won't get arrested.

Diana

[booney]

Why is ethics based entirely on Western concepts? There in a universal stance, ethics are nothing. They are just codes. As in, you could say that the holocaust wasn't a bad thing, because you believed it.

Discuss etc.

You are begging the question. What makes you think that 'ethics,' (The study of that which humans think is 'good' and 'evil') is based entirely on Western concepts?

Almost every culture has some idea of what 'good' and 'evil' may be; positive or negative aspects...whatever they may think is 'good' or 'not good.' "Ethics" is the study of those things, whatever they are.

Yeah it's true that every culture has each own. I guess it has something to do with their location and beliefs.

[Kuan]

Why is ethics based entirely on Western concepts? There in a universal stance, ethics are nothing. They are just codes. As in, you could say that the holocaust wasn't a bad thing, because you believed it.

Discuss etc.

You are begging the question. What makes you think that 'ethics,' (The study of that which humans think is 'good' and 'evil') is based entirely on Western concepts?

Almost every culture has some idea of what 'good' and 'evil' may be; positive or negative aspects...whatever they may think is 'good' or 'not good.' "Ethics" is the study of those things, whatever they are.

Yeah it's true that every culture has each own. I guess it has something to do with their location and beliefs.


----------------

In fact you would be surprised, it has almost evrything to do with location and beliefs. Ethics is an interesting topic becuase it changes from where you go. In a way ethics in America is a joke. By that I mean the common misunderstanding that everyone has the same ethics as we do. That they all want a government like ours. That type of thinking is dangerous and has been the cause of many tragedies. What isnt a joke is having ethics. Its what keeps our societies, cultures, governments, and lives in balance. You dont have to religious or not to have a set of ethics, yet it appears that some ethics are almost universal. Murder, stealing, have very strict rules against them in many cultures and ethics. You cant force ethics upon people but then why do we force our ethics and stop genocide? They believe that the genocide is right! Why stop it? Should we impose human rights? Should we interfere in Libya?

[Filthy Tugboat]

Why is ethics based entirely on Western concepts? There in a universal stance, ethics are nothing. They are just codes. As in, you could say that the holocaust wasn't a bad thing, because you believed it.

Discuss etc.

Ethics in America is a joke!

Why are ethics in Ameri... Never mind, I think you're about to tell me.

American behavior isn't based on anything at all.

So then where does the behavior come from?

Western, eastern, northern or southern, there are no ethics, no 'stance', no codes, no LAW.

That appears to be blatantly false.

Behavior is based on what one 'can get away with'.

For some, I'm sure it is.

It is illegal to teach ethics

False.

which is why we don't have any.

Are you projecting?

A university math instructor can teach his students that 1 + 1 = 2 and that's it. Nobody can refute his word.

Well nobody can refute that but they can certainly hold a different viewpoint to a teacher. Not in mathematics though as it is a subject that has right and wrong answers, but English, philosophy, ethics and many others people can certainly hold different positions and voice their opinions.

A history teacher can say that America became involved in WWII on December 7, 1941. That's it.
Nobody can refute his word.

This also appears to be blatantly false.

BUT, should a professor dictate to his class that such and such a thing is right or wrong or that a thing is ethically abhorrent

Depends on what it is but generally, no, a teacher is not in a position where they can dictate such things.

he will shortly find himself called before the dean and read the riot act.

And rightly so, a teacher shouldn't be dictating what is and is not right, why is he in a position to set a standard on it?

A student can actually file suit against an instructor for dictating behavior in light of ethics, morality, or some 'code'.

I think that's a bit extreme but the teacher certainly doesn't have the right.

In point of fact NOBODY WANTS A CODE. Nobody wants ethical behavior to be dictated by society, religion or even the government.

Are you projecting again?

Case in point. You've probably heard or read stories about the Ten Commandments being removed from a city court house. Lots of noise and lots of clammor by folks everywhere....especially the religious.

And rightly so, a country that enforces freedom of religion is breaking their own standards by favoring a religion.

But when was the last time you saw the ten commandments written on the wall inside a church?

Wouldn't know, rarely go to churches and when I do I don't really look for writing on the walls.

Christians don't want any 'code'. Not really. Neither do the heathen.
We kill and rob and cheat one another with reckless abandon in America.
Teaching and practicing ethics is technically illegal and a cultural abomination.

Projecting?

So what's the fuss all about? As far as I can tell, the codeless masses in this country want their bankers and their politicans to play by the rules while they themselves merrily go about their business screwing each other on their own.

It's called hypocrisy and it crosses every religious, ideological and cultural barrier in America. The problem with hypocrits is that they are so busy pointing their crooked fingers at everybody else that they don't see their own booger hanging on it.

Projecting again?

Will God judge us for our lack of morality and ethics?

Is there a God that is capable of such an action?

Why bother? All He has to do is let us do what we want to do in the first place....screw each other 'till there's nothing left.

Does this God have a penis? If not, why call it a he?

[dianaiad]

BUT, should a professor dictate to his class that such and such a thing is right or wrong or that a thing is ethically abhorrent

Depends on what it is but generally, no, a teacher is not in a position where they can dictate such things.

While I read your post with interest and some agreement, I need to take issue with a couple of your points; the above is one of them. Actually, a teacher is very much in such a position; perhaps not by force of law, but certainly by force of things far more important to the student--and longer lasting. Grades hang upon making the professor happy, and few are made happy when their students disagree with them regarding things of ethical, or political, nature. I don't care WHAT they may say; they tend to grade students who agree with them better than they do students who do not. As well, the influence of a charismatic and interesting teacher tends to last for years. You will find this out as you continue in your scholastic career, if you haven't figured it out by now.

Case in point. You've probably heard or read stories about the Ten Commandments being removed from a city court house. Lots of noise and lots of clammor by folks everywhere....especially the religious.

And rightly so, a country that enforces freedom of religion is breaking their own standards by favoring a religion.

I believe that you need to go back and read the first amendment to the US Constitution. While it forbids the government from establishing a state religion, the very next clause in the sentence forbids it from doing anything to inhibit the freedom of religion. What this means is simple. Not EASY, but simple. It means that the government MUST enforce freedom of religion...or more specifically, freedom to think, behave and express your opinions of deity as you wish. It also means that the government may not discriminate AGAINST any religion (or group whose principle idea is an opinion regarding deity) simply because it has such a theist (or atheist) principle idea.

This does mean that we can't have forced public prayer in schools, or post the Ten Commandments in public buildings as a religious symbol/idea. It ALSO means that if a school allows private clubs to use their classrooms after hours, it cannot tell a 'Christian' youth club that it may NOT meet there because it is a Christian youth club.


(looking at the rest of your post)

Yep, those were the two items I had problems with. Otherwise? I mostly agree.

[Filthy Tugboat]

BUT, should a professor dictate to his class that such and such a thing is right or wrong or that a thing is ethically abhorrent

Depends on what it is but generally, no, a teacher is not in a position where they can dictate such things.

While I read your post with interest and some agreement, I need to take issue with a couple of your points; the above is one of them. Actually, a teacher is very much in such a position; perhaps not by force of law, but certainly by force of things far more important to the student--and longer lasting. Grades hang upon making the professor happy, and few are made happy when their students disagree with them regarding things of ethical, or political, nature. I don't care WHAT they may say; they tend to grade students who agree with them better than they do students who do not. As well, the influence of a charismatic and interesting teacher tends to last for years. You will find this out as you continue in your scholastic career, if you haven't figured it out by now.

You seem to have misinterpreted, the teacher is not in a position to dictate ethics to their students. The rest of the post I agree with.

Case in point. You've probably heard or read stories about the Ten Commandments being removed from a city court house. Lots of noise and lots of clammor by folks everywhere....especially the religious.

And rightly so, a country that enforces freedom of religion is breaking their own standards by favoring a religion.

I believe that you need to go back and read the first amendment to the US Constitution.

No, I don't think that I do.

While it forbids the government from establishing a state religion, the very next clause in the sentence forbids it from doing anything to inhibit the freedom of religion. What this means is simple. Not EASY, but simple. It means that the government MUST enforce freedom of religion...or more specifically, freedom to think, behave and express your opinions of deity as you wish. It also means that the government may not discriminate AGAINST any religion (or group whose principle idea is an opinion regarding deity) simply because it has such a theist (or atheist) principle idea.

I am well aware of this.

This does mean that we can't have forced public prayer in schools, or post the Ten Commandments in public buildings as a religious symbol/idea.

So what I wrote was correct?

It ALSO means that if a school allows private clubs to use their classrooms after hours, it cannot tell a 'Christian' youth club that it may NOT meet there because it is a Christian youth club.

I agree.

(looking at the rest of your post)

Yep, those were the two items I had problems with. Otherwise? I mostly agree.

Nice to know my post is largely agreeable.

[dianaiad]

You seem to have misinterpreted, the teacher is not in a position to dictate ethics to their students. The rest of the post I agree with.

To 'dictate' means to declare something to be true, or to be done; a philosophy or action...with some means of enforcement behind the declaration. Teachers can, and do, dictate ethics to their students all the time. If you don't think so, take a look at your own school's 'academic policy' sometime.

When grades are at stake, the person issuing them is absolutely dictating the rules, means and attitudes by which they are obtained. By the way, 'dictate' doesn't mean that the students can't decide not to abide by those dictates. The very existence of punishment for disobeying dictates proves that it's possible to do so...else why bother inventing punishments?

Or, in the case of teachers...why bother assigning grades less than an "A"?

Case in point. You've probably heard or read stories about the Ten Commandments being removed from a city court house. Lots of noise and lots of clammor by folks everywhere....especially the religious.

And rightly so, a country that enforces freedom of religion is breaking their own standards by favoring a religion.

I believe that you need to go back and read the first amendment to the US Constitution.

No, I don't think that I do.

Yes, I think that you do; your statement, above, that a 'country that enforces freedom of religion is breaking their own standards by favoring a religion,' shows this. How can one be favoring a religion when one is enforcing freedom of religion?

The first amendment is, arguably, the most important amendment; without it, none of the others work. Freedom of thought, of speech, and of religion MUST be protected and enforced. Not freedom FROM, freedom OF.

........because "freedom from" religion is absolutely establishing a state religion..an 'anti-religion,' if you will. What difference does it make whether the government suppresses one belief system--or all of them? The injustice is the same. If the only legally acceptable opinion regarding deity is that there isn't one, I submit that this establishing a state religion in every sense but the literal; it certainly violates the very spirit of the first amendment; every single part of it.

It is vital that freedom of religion be enforced; every person should be free to believe, to worship, to express his beliefs, and to behave according to those beliefs...whether those beliefs are approved by everybody else or not. In fact, it is those beliefs that are held by the minority that need the most protection.

The only restriction should be this: that no physical harm should be done to those who cannot, or do not, agree to participate, This caveat does, you understand, settle the argument of 'what about human sacrifice..."

You wanna go dance with snakes? Go dance with snakes. Just don't hand one to your kid, or to me.

You want to rail against the very presence of religious symbols where you might see them? Fine. Go do that. Yell all you want to. Put unicorns and stuffed Cthulu's in your yard, and Darwin fish on your bumper. But the Jehovah's Witnesses STILL have the right to knock on your door. That's why they invented doorbells and locks.

....and yes, the Baptists have the right to hand me copies of " The Godmakers" in front of the Temple as I walk in. I also have the right to put it in the trash bin.

The problem with ethics is...they are uncomfortable. They require (at least, the good systems do) that you allow others to be as free to have opinions as you are, even if you don't agree with them. In fact, they force you to see to it that they can.

.....and the government must enforce freedom of religion...the freedom to be religious in one's chosen way, and the freedom to be not religious at all, and even to be against it altogether.