The argument from evil

[bernee51]

The argument from evil - AE - (Theodore Drange)

First let us define an expression that will be used in the argument:

Situation L = the situation of the amount of suffering and prema ture death experienced by humans in the world at the present time being significantly less than what it actually is at present. (In other words, if the actual amount, at present, is, say, a total of n units of suffering and premature death, then in situation L that amount would be, at present, significantly less than n units.)

Then AE, making reference to situation L, can be expressed as follows:

(A) If God were to exist, then he would possess all of the following four properties (among others):

o (1) being able to bring about situation L, all things considered;

o (2) wanting to bring about situation L, i.e., having it among his desires;

o (3) not wanting anything else that conflicts with his desire to bring about situation L as strongly as it;

o (4) being rational (which implies always acting in accord with his own highest purposes).

(B) If a being who has all four properties listed above were to exist, then situation L would have to obtain.

(C) But situation L does not obtain. The amount of suffering and unfairness in the world at the present time is not significantly less than what it actually is at present.

(D) Therefore [from (B) & (C)], there does not exist a being who has all four properties listed in premise (A).

(E) Hence [from (A) & (D)], God does not exist.

A similar argument can be put regarding the level of non-belief

regards

Bernie

[Corvus]

We have to ask ourselves, does God really want to end suffering in the world? God is just, God is merciful. But God is a Liberal? I don't think so.

Although I agree with you that this does not disprove the existence of God, merely an image of him, I think I recall you stating the Christian God is a tyrant, which seems at odds with your description of him as just and merciful. Or do you mean to say God is not a Liberal but... a Compassionate Conservative!

[otseng]

The crucial point to intervene is not in the temporary problems we see on the earth, but in the eternal destiny of souls. This is the line where God chose to intervene in earthly affairs and provided a solution to the most important problem.

I would like to know the name of this most important problem. The need for eternal law?

The most important problem is the eternal fate of our souls. Our problems here on earth are temporary, for all cases, less than 120 years. Yet the destiny of our souls is for eternity. God drew the line to intervene by providing salvation for our souls through Jesus Christ.

The name of the problem... I guess it would be "the eternal destiny of our souls".

Let's just say there are various severities of pain that is not a direct result of human folly, discounting the Original Sin.

I would agree that there exists pain/suffering that are not a direct, or even indirect, result of human decisions. My philosophical prowess cannot provide a conclusive and satisfying answer to the existence of such.

Think about this; my brother was born with a heart so small that upon being delivered, he died within 24 hours. I cannot say if this is fair or not, but surely you can admit this is inefficient.

I don't know how to characterize this to be either inefficient or efficient. Even in a perfect world, nothing is totally efficient. When I think of efficiency, I think of "100% put in has 100% come out with no unwanted byproducts in the process".

[ST88]

Although I agree with you that this does not disprove the existence of God, merely an image of him, I think I recall you stating the Christian God is a tyrant, which seems at odds with your description of him as just and merciful. Or do you mean to say God is not a Liberal but... a Compassionate Conservative!

God can be just and merciful as well as a tyrant, depending on what the context of his actions are. Christians must believe that God is just and merciful only because everyone will get what's coming to them after death. Therefore He is not a tyrant. However, if we view his actions in terms of humanity, a person who acted like God would, indeed, be called a tyrant.

At this point in time, God could be said to be a Libertarian. He hasn't demonstratively intervened in our affairs for such a long time, I think he could be a laissez-faire capitalist also.

[bernee51]

The most important problem is the eternal fate of our souls .... Yet the destiny of our souls is for eternity.

our souls are eternal? that means without begining or end. Where, IYO, have our souls been since the universe was 'created'?

Unless souls are somehow recycled, there is a (potentially) infinite number of souls existing for eternity. Do they occupy any physical space?

Is 'spirit' different to 'soul'?

'destiny' (in my dictionary - the OED), and it has the same definition here, is defined as 'the predetermined course of events'.

Is the future of the soul subject to 'destiny' as per that definition?

regards

bernie

[otseng]

our souls are eternal? that means without begining or end. Where, IYO, have our souls been since the universe was 'created'?

Unless souls are somehow recycled, there is a (potentially) infinite number of souls existing for eternity. Do they occupy any physical space?

Is 'spirit' different to 'soul'?

'destiny' (in my dictionary - the OED), and it has the same definition here, is defined as 'the predetermined course of events'.

Is the future of the soul subject to 'destiny' as per that definition?

Those are all good questions. Please start up new threads to discuss those questions.

[Corvus]

The crucial point to intervene is not in the temporary problems we see on the earth, but in the eternal destiny of souls. This is the line where God chose to intervene in earthly affairs and provided a solution to the most important problem.

I would like to know the name of this most important problem. The need for eternal law?

The most important problem is the eternal fate of our souls. Our problems here on earth are temporary, for all cases, less than 120 years. Yet the destiny of our souls is for eternity. God drew the line to intervene by providing salvation for our souls through Jesus Christ.

The name of the problem... I guess it would be "the eternal destiny of our souls".

But the eternal destiny of souls is decided on the basis of temporary problems. Those few years on earth are of importance. If we did not have a temporary life, or a very short one in which we do not have time to mature, we would all be on heaven. So earth and what happens on it is important because of the importance God has applied to it.

My take of the Christian perspective of earth is that it is a test for humanity, for humans to aid other humans to overcome their environment. Which is why when I see a question in this test that has no answer, such as an uncurable disease one is born with that causes them to die before the age of accountability, I see this as inefficient and pointless.

Think about this; my brother was born with a heart so small that upon being delivered, he died within 24 hours. I cannot say if this is fair or not, but surely you can admit this is inefficient.

I don't know how to characterize this to be either inefficient or efficient. Even in a perfect world, nothing is totally efficient. When I think of efficiency, I think of "100% put in has 100% come out with no unwanted byproducts in the process".

I believe God is quite capable of creating such a world, and heaven is one.

[otseng]

But the eternal destiny of souls is decided on the basis of temporary problems. Those few years on earth are of importance. If we did not have a temporary life, or a very short one in which we do not have time to mature, we would all be on heaven. So earth and what happens on it is important because of the importance God has applied to it.

True.

My take of the Christian perspective of earth is that it is a test for humanity, for humans to aid other humans to overcome their environment. Which is why when I see a question in this test that has no answer, such as an uncurable disease one is born with that causes them to die before the age of accountability, I see this as inefficient and pointless.

The whole point of the Christian life was well summarized by littlesoul (and isn't he a Hindu?).

As far as I ever understood the aim of Christianity is stated in the Highest Commandment -

To love god with all one's heart and soul and love one's neighbour as oneself.

I believe God is quite capable of creating such a world, and heaven is one.

Also true.

[dangerdan]

Corvus wrote:

But the eternal destiny of souls is decided on the basis of temporary problems. Those few years on earth are of importance. If we did not have a temporary life, or a very short one in which we do not have time to mature, we would all be on heaven. So earth and what happens on it is important because of the importance God has applied to it.

True.

But this view of the world is quite radically different from the one depicted in Genesis. It seems to say in Genesis that God fully intended to make the world perfect and good, correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:

My take of the Christian perspective of earth is that it is a test for humanity, for humans to aid other humans to overcome their environment. Which is why when I see a question in this test that has no answer, such as an uncurable disease one is born with that causes them to die before the age of accountability, I see this as inefficient and pointless.

The whole point of the Christian life was well summarized by littlesoul (and isn't he a Hindu?).

But lets be honest, there is a lot more evil in the world than just babies dying of incurable diseases (as repugnant as this is). How about, say, a tapeworm. Or a lion. Well basically the entire way the ecosystem is set up. Animals have to eat other animals to live. Violent, cruel, and grotesque. “Nature, red in tooth and claw”. Now that is disgusting! Just watch the Discovery Channel for two seconds.

Quote:

I believe God is quite capable of creating such a world, and heaven is one.

Also true.

Then why did God stuff this world up so bad? He could have easily just made earth like heaven, unless he didn’t want to. So this would mean God values sickness and violence.