Woo's Woo in Christianity

[Oldfarmhouse]

One of the problems for those who adhere to Christian doctrine (any doctrine, really) is the existence of people who were at one time strong believers in the faith and then at some point abandoned it. The reason that this is a difficult issue for the believers is that former members often provide detailed coherent descriptions of how they came to question, doubt, and eventually reject the doctrine.

Almost invariably the reasons for leaving differ between ex-members and current members. Former Christians often describe a process of investigation into the claims made by the group and ended up with very unimpressive answers. Ex-Christians discuss education and how the increase in knowledge and exposure to different cultures and ideas renders the theology useless to accurately describe the world.

On the other side Christians give very different reasons that people leave the faith. Invariably members of the faith will blame the person who left the church and never admit to the possibility theat the doctrine is inadequate. I will say that there are exceptions -- if they don’t blame the person who left then it’s that crafty devil who led them astray.

For discussion -- why do you think Christians become ex-Christians?

[ttruscott]

One of the problems for those who adhere to Christian doctrine (any doctrine, really) is the existence of people who were at one time strong believers in the faith and then at some point abandoned it. The reason that this is a difficult issue for the believers is that former members often provide detailed coherent descriptions of how they came to question, doubt, and eventually reject the doctrine.

Almost invariably the reasons for leaving differ between ex-members and current members. Former Christians often describe a process of investigation into the claims made by the group and ended up with very unimpressive answers. Ex-Christians discuss education and how the increase in knowledge and exposure to different cultures and ideas renders the theology useless to accurately describe the world.

On the other side Christians give very different reasons that people leave the faith. Invariably members of the faith will blame the person who left the church and never admit to the possibility theat the doctrine is inadequate. I will say that there are exceptions -- if they don’t blame the person who left then it’s that crafty devil who led them astray.

For discussion -- why do you think Christians become ex-Christians?

So far this is meaningless without specific doctrines and why your people think the specifics failed them...

As good as asking why I quit being an atheist I guess.

God bless...
Ted

[AdHoc]

One of the problems for those who adhere to Christian doctrine (any doctrine, really) is the existence of people who were at one time strong believers in the faith and then at some point abandoned it. The reason that this is a difficult issue for the believers is that former members often provide detailed coherent descriptions of how they came to question, doubt, and eventually reject the doctrine.

Almost invariably the reasons for leaving differ between ex-members and current members. Former Christians often describe a process of investigation into the claims made by the group and ended up with very unimpressive answers. Ex-Christians discuss education and how the increase in knowledge and exposure to different cultures and ideas renders the theology useless to accurately describe the world.

On the other side Christians give very different reasons that people leave the faith. Invariably members of the faith will blame the person who left the church and never admit to the possibility theat the doctrine is inadequate. I will say that there are exceptions -- if they don’t blame the person who left then it’s that crafty devil who led them astray.

For discussion -- why do you think Christians become ex-Christians?

I assume by the term "Christian" you mean a person who attends church, prays and has a strong faith in God and Jesus Christ.

If you are happy with that definition I will say the reasons are likely myriad but maybe could be broken down into internal and external reasons.

Internal reasons might include: doubt, reason or keen disappointment. Maybe they came across an overwhelming weight of evidence that when taken on balance forced them to discard their faith or something terrible happened to them or someone they know and caused them to feel abandoned by God.

External reasons might include: Fellow Christians or leaders that either fell from grace or treated them in an un-Christian manner.

These are all reasons I have heard from people in my experience.

[Haven]

One of the problems for those who adhere to Christian doctrine (any doctrine, really) is the existence of people who were at one time strong believers in the faith and then at some point abandoned it. The reason that this is a difficult issue for the believers is that former members often provide detailed coherent descriptions of how they came to question, doubt, and eventually reject the doctrine.

Almost invariably the reasons for leaving differ between ex-members and current members. Former Christians often describe a process of investigation into the claims made by the group and ended up with very unimpressive answers. Ex-Christians discuss education and how the increase in knowledge and exposure to different cultures and ideas renders the theology useless to accurately describe the world.

On the other side Christians give very different reasons that people leave the faith. Invariably members of the faith will blame the person who left the church and never admit to the possibility theat the doctrine is inadequate. I will say that there are exceptions -- if they don’t blame the person who left then it’s that crafty devil who led them astray.

For discussion -- why do you think Christians become ex-Christians?

I can't speak for all ex-Christians, but I left the faith for the reasons that you described. I was raised in the Southern Baptist church, was brought up to believe by my parents, and "made a decision for Christ" during my sophomore year of college. I believed with all my heart and placed following Christ at the absolute center of my life. I attended church, went to bible studies and InterVarsity meetings, prayed, fasted, read the Bible twice every day, and went on mission trips to other cities and countries.

I was fully convinced in my heart that Jesus was Lord, but my mind always had some doubts, which I attributed to Satan's influence in tempting me. I pushed those doubts out of my mind for years and continued to focus on my own spiritual development, however, the doubts continued to grow. The spring after I graduated from college, I decided I could no longer keep pushing the doubts out of my mind, and I decided to investigate what evidence -- if any -- supported the claims of the Christian faith. After months of intense searching and studying of the evidence and philosophy surrounding the Christian faith, I left Christianity and became an agnostic atheist.

I didn't want to leave the faith or the church I had come to be heavily involved in, but I knew I could not live a lie and pretend to believe. I spent many a sleepless night agonizing over my decision, however, eventually I learned to accept it and embrace the freedom of accepting reality as it is.

Today, I couldn't imagine going back to being a Christian -- I love building my worldview on Kindness, Beauty, and Truth alone, without feeling the need to shoehorn religious mythology in or worry about running afoul of God's commands.

~haven

[phoenixrising]

My reasons for leaving organized christian church [been in many denoms over a 37 year period] are different from most other x-churchians` reasons.
Doctrine had little, if anything, to do with it.
Attitudes and behaviors of fellow believers had everything to do with it.
Especially their AngloAmerican worldview of superiority, and their habit of regarding [and often treating] anyone who is an "other" as less than themselves, inferior or even suhuman.

I am a follower of Creator Jesus, was before I became a churchian, and am remaining so after I have left where I was never really welcome in the first place.
I loathe being intrusive........
According to most christians I am not one of them. They regard me as pagan and heretic.
True christians, I have been taught all my life, follow Jesus in the context of the [only] valid christian culture - AngloAmerican culture.
If people from non-AngloAmerican cultures want to follow Jesus, they are required to first reject their own culture and worldview, give up their own language, forget who they are and what people they come from, and then submit themselves to total assimilation into that unholy hodgepodge called the [Anglo]American meltingpot.
I hate to break you the bad news :
There are some rocks that do not melt in that ugly stew!

phoenix

[AquinasD]

Why should we expect there to be just one single reason? There are many different reasons people become Christians, so likewise we should expect there to be many different reasons people leave the fold.

One reason is probably that they were never intellectually grounded in the first place. Popular philosophies that are kind to the careful analysis of theology and metaphysics it takes to be an intellectually grounded Christian are very few. It is just a fact of our age that a popular philosophy happens to be the decrepit scientism you see pushed by so many even here on the forum.

Another is that they only ever get to know fundamentalist Christianity. Once they find that it is weak, they decide that all Christianity must be weak.

Lastly, maybe they're just emotional. How many people have left Christianity after some upsetting circumstance? Like, oh, now that evil has happened to you do you decide to see the power of the problem of evil?

I'm not very concerned with the reasons people leave Christianity. Perhaps it is unfair to point out that 90% of conversions happen for stupid reasons; but there you are, that is just a fact. Of the 10% for whom they have good reasons, then it would be because they find certain essential claims to be beyond belief. That is my own experience.

[Oldfarmhouse]

One of the problems for those who adhere to Christian doctrine (any doctrine, really) is the existence of people who were at one time strong believers in the faith and then at some point abandoned it. The reason that this is a difficult issue for the believers is that former members often provide detailed coherent descriptions of how they came to question, doubt, and eventually reject the doctrine.

Almost invariably the reasons for leaving differ between ex-members and current members. Former Christians often describe a process of investigation into the claims made by the group and ended up with very unimpressive answers. Ex-Christians discuss education and how the increase in knowledge and exposure to different cultures and ideas renders the theology useless to accurately describe the world.

On the other side Christians give very different reasons that people leave the faith. Invariably members of the faith will blame the person who left the church and never admit to the possibility theat the doctrine is inadequate. I will say that there are exceptions -- if they don’t blame the person who left then it’s that crafty devil who led them astray.

For discussion -- why do you think Christians become ex-Christians?

I can't speak for all ex-Christians, but I left the faith for the reasons that you described. I was raised in the Southern Baptist church, was brought up to believe by my parents, and "made a decision for Christ" during my sophomore year of college. I believed with all my heart and placed following Christ at the absolute center of my life. I attended church, went to bible studies and InterVarsity meetings, prayed, fasted, read the Bible twice every day, and went on mission trips to other cities and countries.

I was fully convinced in my heart that Jesus was Lord, but my mind always had some doubts, which I attributed to Satan's influence in tempting me. I pushed those doubts out of my mind for years and continued to focus on my own spiritual development, however, the doubts continued to grow. The spring after I graduated from college, I decided I could no longer keep pushing the doubts out of my mind, and I decided to investigate what evidence -- if any -- supported the claims of the Christian faith. After months of intense searching and studying of the evidence and philosophy surrounding the Christian faith, I left Christianity and became an agnostic atheist.

I didn't want to leave the faith or the church I had come to be heavily involved in, but I knew I could not live a lie and pretend to believe. I spent many a sleepless night agonizing over my decision, however, eventually I learned to accept it and embrace the freedom of accepting reality as it is.

Today, I couldn't imagine going back to being a Christian -- I love building my worldview on Kindness, Beauty, and Truth alone, without feeling the need to shoehorn religious mythology in or worry about running afoul of God's commands.

~haven

I have read accounts from many former believers. It is a subject that I have a great deal of interest in -- how people join, believe, disbelieve and leave religious groups.

I recognize a common factor in your story about the fear of entertaining the doubts that come into your mind. I have come across many different scenarios about how people start doubting -- like they start with the most obviously fictional claims. We know that Noah's Ark was never a historical event so that is a metaphor. But then -- what else a metaphor and how do we know? Until the whole house of cards tumbles.

I notice a range of attitudes from ex-members toward the group they once belonged to. My neighbor was with the Moonies for a few years. He does not believe a word of it today, but he considers it a learning experience and harbors no bad feelings for the Moonies. Others become rabid toward their former group and want to see the end of it as soon as possible. Ex-Scientologists appear to have this attitude the most.

[fredonly]

I think most of the active non-theists on this forum are former Christians, and we would each have our own story.

In my case, when I realized that such stories as Adam and Eve were not historical, but just didactic fiction, I began to ask the question in general: where does the fiction leave off and the facts begin? The more I looked for some rational justification for the religiously important elements of the faith, the more vacuous it seemed.

[ttruscott]

It was DOCTRINE that brought me back to the church which I rejected as a teen over people issues.

I was always driven to understand the why of the universe so after the church I explored existentialism, nihiisnm, the Eastern religions, etc. I read the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Urantia Book, Lao Tsu, The Satanic Bible by Lavey plus a lot of others.

My motto was all roads go to the top of the mountain but I was suspicious of Christianity because I know it didn't agree.

Shiva / Krishna, Buddha, Lao Tsu, Jesus, Allah, even Jehovah were all minifestations of the same things: the eternal GODhead.

I was struggling to understand zen when my friend challenged me about not being sincere about spiritual success. I protested and he said that if I was sincere and if all paths went to the top of the mountain then why did I not eplore the path that I was used to, in the culture I was used to and the language I was used to and read the Bible?

After some time I did exactly that. Front to back. Three times. Things I learned:

Every teacher of every religion claimed to be buddies with Jehovah and teaching the same except the Urantia book which called him insane.

Jehovah said:
Exodus 20:3-5
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Yikes, someone was really out of touch here... If the other religions were speaking the truth then maybe the Urantia pov was also true and HE was insane.

HE certainly started right off being the opposite of what they claimed HE was. Page after page HE slaughtered those who believed in false gods who believed in the things the other religions believed in.

HE was a GOD at war!

Yet these teachers of the eastern religions called HIM "one of us." I don't think so... It was their claims about HIM that convinced me HE was not insane but they were liars.

This modified my understanding of what I was reading and I started to try to make it all make sense instead of just being about a maybe GOD. I stumbled over free will and election for years...but kept searching.

Slowly over the next 20 years I learned a piece of doctrinal truth here, a bit there that made what Jehovah said and did make even more sense. I had a repentance experience and rebirth experience that I know separates the sheep from the goats.

Here I am...

May GOD's peace be on you,

Ted

[Oldfarmhouse]

Why should we expect there to be just one single reason? There are many different reasons people become Christians, so likewise we should expect there to be many different reasons people leave the fold.

One reason is probably that they were never intellectually grounded in the first place. Popular philosophies that are kind to the careful analysis of theology and metaphysics it takes to be an intellectually grounded Christian are very few. It is just a fact of our age that a popular philosophy happens to be the decrepit scientism you see pushed by so many even here on the forum.

Another is that they only ever get to know fundamentalist Christianity. Once they find that it is weak, they decide that all Christianity must be weak.

Lastly, maybe they're just emotional. How many people have left Christianity after some upsetting circumstance? Like, oh, now that evil has happened to you do you decide to see the power of the problem of evil?

I'm not very concerned with the reasons people leave Christianity. Perhaps it is unfair to point out that 90% of conversions happen for stupid reasons; but there you are, that is just a fact. Of the 10% for whom they have good reasons, then it would be because they find certain essential claims to be beyond belief. That is my own experience.

Yes people leave religion, stay in religion, acquire a religion, or switch from one religion to another for almost as many different reasons as there are people who do that. But I think we can establish categories and apply some degree of generalization for the purpose of sociological observations.

Then you talk about being intellectually grounded in the religion. What I get from that is that you are talking about a firm logical and philosophical groundwork in which you can understand why you believe the doctrine rather than the mere acceptance of the dogma for it's own sake.

I can see that is something that is very important to you -- but I would not say that it is a good predictor as to whether or not a person will leave their religion. There are many people who had a very firm intellectual grounding in their faith and then left. Many people are Christians for no reasons any deeper than that's what their parents are. Many of them retain the faith for a life time. I really don't see this as being a strong predictor. predictor.

Then you talk about fundamentalist Christianity -- or let's just say, some branch of Christian faith that is primarily dogma based rather than intellect based. I would entirely agree that mere dogma is a weak justification for adherence to a doctrine -- but whether that is a good predictor for attrition is another matter entirely. One thing that strict dogmatic groups do it turn the fear and guilt all the way up to 11. Though it may backfire in some subjects -- if it wasn't effective, they wouldn't do it. Religion is a business and all businesses need loyal customers who keep coming back. Another thing i might add is that in the many, many de-conversion accounts that I have read -- it is very common for a subject to investigate several different christian groups before abandoning the faith altogether.

-- as for the last part -- reasons for conversion being good or stupid is nothing but a matter of opinion. Everyone who has converted to Christianity (or any religion) and is happy with that decision thinks that they have a good reason for it and they probably don't care what you think.

But you do introduce a good point -- that of converts vs. born-ins. There is a significant different in retention rates. Born-in are much more likely to stick with the religion for life, or at least many years, most converts stick around for about a year.