5 year old transvestite

What would you do if?

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Bagley
Student
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:23 pm
Location: UK

5 year old transvestite

Post #1

Post by Bagley »

Yesterday I happened to notice this story in the paper, and was wondering what peoples thoughts on the subject were.

Personally, I find it rather pointless, to me the differences between a man and a woman are fairly obvious and hard wired, societal stereotypes have nothing to do with gender and are only skin deep. And I find it rather odd that a parent would entertain the whim of a child by basically lying to them about their gender.

an example would be to say, if someone chose to wear a beret, a striped shirt and a string of garlic, that wouldn't make them French. Only being French would make them French. And I would find it odd if others were to reassure the beret wearer that they are in fact French. (not sure if that's a good enough analogy to put across my thoughts, but it's the best I can do off the top of my head).

Anyway, I'm willing to accept my view may be wrong, this is why I thought I would offer it to the forum in order to gain others insight on the matter.

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24961
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 175 times

Re: 5 year old transvestite

Post #2

Post by Goat »

Bagley wrote:Yesterday I happened to notice this story in the paper, and was wondering what peoples thoughts on the subject were.

Personally, I find it rather pointless, to me the differences between a man and a woman are fairly obvious and hard wired, societal stereotypes have nothing to do with gender and are only skin deep. And I find it rather odd that a parent would entertain the whim of a child by basically lying to them about their gender.

an example would be to say, if someone chose to wear a beret, a striped shirt and a string of garlic, that wouldn't make them French. Only being French would make them French. And I would find it odd if others were to reassure the beret wearer that they are in fact French. (not sure if that's a good enough analogy to put across my thoughts, but it's the best I can do off the top of my head).

Anyway, I'm willing to accept my view may be wrong, this is why I thought I would offer it to the forum in order to gain others insight on the matter.

Well, I have a couple of friends that are totally gender queer (their term, not mine). I have gotten a bit of information about it.. it is not something I can emotionally understand, since my emotional gut feeling is very similar to yours, at least when it comes to MY own personal choices.

However, that being said, human sexuality and development is pretty darn complicated. The brain can have 'gender issues', probably because of hormonal issues in the womb, and other biological and chemical issues.

This little boy's claims are straight out the same as what one of friends experiences were. I can not say that I know or understand it, but their experiences match the way this article is written.

Unlike this boy, the woman I know has a very fundamentalist mother who did not accept her daughters sexuality.. and that caused many issues.. but nothing the mother did (including shrinks, 'pray the gay away', and mental institutions) changed this persons sexual orientation.


I personally think 5 is a bit too young to make that choice though.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

Bust Nak
Savant
Posts: 9485
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am
Location: Planet Earth
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 184 times

Re: 5 year old transvestite

Post #3

Post by Bust Nak »

Bagley wrote:Personally, I find it rather pointless, to me the differences between a man and a woman are fairly obvious and hard wired, societal stereotypes have nothing to do with gender and are only skin deep.
Gender is rather more complicated than that, it's not a case of one or the other, but a range of possibility, both physically with ambiguous genitalia, and mentally with gender identity disorder. (Affecting from 1 in 500 to 1 in 1000 peoson as I recall.)
And I find it rather odd that a parent would entertain the whim of a child by basically lying to them about their gender.
Huge difference between one's gender and one's gender identity, and it's not a lie to say this girl (it's only polite to refer to her with the gender she identifies with, as opposed to what genital she has) identifies herself with female, as comfirmed by doctor's diagnosis.
Anyway, I'm willing to accept my view may be wrong, this is why I thought I would offer it to the forum in order to gain others insight on the matter.
Well, I can tell you I know I was a boy well before the age of 5, I think you would have formed your own gender identity early on in childhood too, no?

User avatar
Jake
Apprentice
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:47 pm

Post #4

Post by Jake »

It's certainly sad that she tried to genitally mutilate herself, but as long as she can come to terms with her disorder, I see no harm. Hopefully she can later afford surgery if she wishes it.

Regardless, I fail to see how this is an ethical dilemma.

StephanieAndromeda
Newbie
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: 5 year old transvestite

Post #5

Post by StephanieAndromeda »

In transgender circles, it's often important to distinguish between societal gender (the gender which society views you as), physical sex (physically male or female, although multiple lines in the sand can be drawn as to exactly where the boundary is), and gender identity (the gender a person sees themselves as).
This kid will likely grow up with a societal gender that matches her gender identity, but will have to wait until adulthood to get her physical sex to match (if you draw the line based on phenotype, rather than genetics).
[quote="

an example would be to say, if someone chose to wear a beret, a striped shirt and a string of garlic, that wouldn't make them French.[/quote]
There could still be many conflicting definitions of "French". For instance, lets say I move to France, live there for ten years, become a citizen, speak Parisian French with no hint of foreign accent, and become fully integrated in French culture. Would I then be considered French? Some would say that, because most of my ancestors were English, I cannot be considered a true French person, while other's might argue that my citizenship and social integration qualify me to call myself French.

User avatar
bluethread
Savant
Posts: 9133
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:10 pm

Re: 5 year old transvestite

Post #6

Post by bluethread »

StephanieAndromeda wrote: In transgender circles, it's often important to distinguish between societal gender (the gender which society views you as), physical sex (physically male or female, although multiple lines in the sand can be drawn as to exactly where the boundary is), and gender identity (the gender a person sees themselves as).
Interesting that you should use the word sex when refering to physiology and gender when refering to sociology and psycology. Especially since the latter (gender) until recently has refered language. Such inconsistancies appear to me to be attempts to direct the discussion through the alteration of definitions. If the lines of Physical sexuality can be blurred without changing term, why must a different term be used when refering to sociology and psycology?

StephanieAndromeda
Newbie
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: 5 year old transvestite

Post #7

Post by StephanieAndromeda »

bluethread wrote:


Interesting that you should use the word sex when refering to physiology and gender when refering to sociology and psycology. Especially since the latter (gender) until recently has refered language. Such inconsistancies appear to me to be attempts to direct the discussion through the alteration of definitions. If the lines of Physical sexuality can be blurred without changing term, why must a different term be used when refering to sociology and psycology?
Which term refers to which is entirely arbitrary, but in current use, "gender" is generally used to refer to sociology and such, and sex is generally used in reference to biology. "Gender" meaning sex became popularized in an attempt to avoid using the word "sex" in reference to humans, because of the erotic connotations it took on, whereas "sex" was still used in talking about animals, and in the medical profession. Thus, it is the word with the more biological connotation and denotation in most modern feminist writing.
In discussion of intersex conditions, where one part of the physical sex conflicts with another, it is useful to distinguish between the various dividing lines between the physical sexes, but in discussion of transgender identity, it is usually most useful to group gender distinctions into the broad categories of psychological, social and physical.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18428
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 449 times
Been thanked: 705 times
Contact:

Re: 5 year old transvestite

Post #8

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by Bagley]

I'm not sure of the psycology behind this kind of condition, but I think we're going to see more and more of this in the future. I wouldn't be surprise to see a similar headline for a 3 or 2 year old next.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Divine Insight
Savant
Posts: 18080
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Here & Now
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: 5 year old transvestite

Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

Bagley wrote: Anyway, I'm willing to accept my view may be wrong, this is why I thought I would offer it to the forum in order to gain others insight on the matter.
I would like to comment on the above. I feel that you are indeed wrong in how you are using the term "gender", you seem to be using "gender" to simply mean "sex". In other words, you are saying that if a person has male genitalia the that person has the "gender" of being a male, and if a person has female genitalia then that person has the "gender" of being female.

But that's not how the term "gender" is typically used. What you are talking about would be "sex". The physical sex of the body the person has. That's not the same as their "gender".

And I think you express this view fairly obviously below:
Bagley wrote: Personally, I find it rather pointless, to me the differences between a man and a woman are fairly obvious and hard wired, societal stereotypes have nothing to do with gender and are only skin deep. And I find it rather odd that a parent would entertain the whim of a child by basically lying to them about their gender.

an example would be to say, if someone chose to wear a beret, a striped shirt and a string of garlic, that wouldn't make them French. Only being French would make them French. And I would find it odd if others were to reassure the beret wearer that they are in fact French. (not sure if that's a good enough analogy to put across my thoughts, but it's the best I can do off the top of my head).
You seem to be saying that gender=sex and it's that simple.

But this is a wrong understanding of how people are using the term "gender". Gender has more to do with how you view yourself, especially with respect to social stereotypes of what "gender" ought to be.

I was listening on the radio one day to a discussion about this, sorry I can't recall the program, I think it may have been on NPR and the show may have been "This Way Out", but I can't be certain that was the show.

In any case, they were talking about gender and how gender has absolutely nothing to do with sex or sexual orientation. Gender has far more to do with personality traits and desires.

Our society tends to put people into "Gender boxes". If you a guy you need to behave like this, if your a gal you need to behave like that. And that's all there is to it. But in truth people "Gender Identity" space a far wider range. It's more of an ill-defined rainbow than a well-defined box.

I agree with this completely. I never had a problem being considered a "male". Especially from a sexual point of view. My sexual orientation is toward the opposite sex without a doubt. I'm not the slightest bit gay, or interested in having sex with another man.

However, at the same time I have had seriously issues with the "Male Stereotype" of what a man should be. In fact, it is often joked that men like The Three Stooges, drinking beer, hanging out with the guys, telling dirty jokes, hunting, guns, etc.

Well, from my perspective I want none of that. If that's the "Male Stereotype" then I must not be a man. I thought The Three Stooges was the most ignorant and stupid show ever and I couldn't even stand to watch it. I wasn't big on drinking beer. I typically didn't like hanging around with the guys. I'm not impressed by dirty joke. I don't like to hunt or kill animals, and I wouldn't have a problem living in a world where there are no guns at all.

In short, I didn't fit the "Male Stereotype" at all. Not even close. So my "gender" is evidently something quite different. Whether my gender fits a female stereotype or not I can't say, but it sure doesn't fit the male stereotype.

So I understand how people can identify with "gender personalities" that are not necessarily in line with their physical sex, or even their sexual orientation in terms of sexual desires.

Gender is something that is totally different entirely.

In fact, we shouldn't be putting "gender" into boxes labeled by sex in any case. We should recognize that every individual is a unique person and not all males want to behave as "men" are expected to behave, and not all females want to behave as "women" are expected to behave.

We really need to recognize that gender (or personality) does not need to be dictated by what's between our legs.

So I totally disagree with your analogy here:
Bagley wrote: an example would be to say, if someone chose to wear a beret, a striped shirt and a string of garlic, that wouldn't make them French. Only being French would make them French. And I would find it odd if others were to reassure the beret wearer that they are in fact French. (not sure if that's a good enough analogy to put across my thoughts, but it's the best I can do off the top of my head).
It's not a good analogy unless you are suggesting that our physical sex should dictate what personality we must have.

If you have a penis you have to act like this, and if you have a virgina you have to act like that. That's really not a good way to go. Why should a person's sex dictate how they need to behave? :-k
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

puddleglum
Sage
Posts: 685
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:35 pm
Contact:

Post #10

Post by puddleglum »

God created humans male and female. The first humans disobeyed and as a result death entered the world. Death was accompanied by other defects such as same sex attraction and gender identity disorder. The individuals who experience these things aren't to blame because they can't help how they feel but society has chosen to help them act out these disorders instead of trying to help them overcome them. In doing this they are rebelling against the order established by God.
If you have a penis you have to act like this, and if you have a virgina you have to act like that. That's really not a good way to go. Why should a person's sex dictate how they need to behave?
This is partly true. God established different and distinct roles for man and women but human human society often imposes requirements that go beyond God's requirements.
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

Post Reply