Is it possible for religion and evolution to coexist?

[Grumpy]

Below is an open letter which has been signed by over 7500 clergy and pastors attesting to the compatibility of scientific discoveries with the tenets of religious thought.

An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science

Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as "one theory among others" is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among Gods good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that Gods loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.

Wisdom indeed!!!

Your thoughts???

Grumpy 8)

[Malachi]

While I wouldn't say that ALL creationist are liars, I would say that the majority are fools at best. They cling tenaciously to dated ideas from a bygone era while denying some of the best evidence for a creator. The Big Bang for instance. Those who subscribe to a 6,000 year Earth. (The Bible genealogies are records of ancestors. Ancient geneologists usual only recorded the names of ancestors of note. This does not mean that the records are incomplete or that the Bible is lying, you just have to take them in context.) And of course evolution, the only possible way that the animals fitting on Noahs arc became the wide variety of species we see on Earth today.

[Grumpy]

hannahjoy

Regardless of whether or not I convince you I still have to deal with the facts. I only have one answer to that question and will give it every time the subject comes up.

Until evidence comes along showing evolution to be false(don't hold your breath) I will teach it's truth, the same with Relativity, magnetism, electricity, daylight, apple pie and the superiority of Ford cars.

Would you have me "fib" to spare you sensitivities??? Should we "dummy down" our science so no ones feelings get hurt??? Should our sciences become second rate because some religion disagrees with the truth??? Should the fact that you disagree with the findings of scientists determine what we can know???

Scientists, like everyone, are not infalible. That is what makes the scientific method of constant testing so important. No theory is accepted without rigorous repeated review. A theory which survives this process is still subject to falsification at any time. When a theory withstands this process for 150 years(as evolution has) you can count on that theory being as certain as the sun rising in the east. The sun might rise in the west tommorrow, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Grumpy 8)

[QED]

"Evolution is a fact, so there!"
Wow, I just can't refute that powerful reasoning.

I'm ever so slightly inclined to side with hannahjoy on this one. Most of the things ordinary people gladly accept as fact are self evident and commonsensical (pardon me for the use of the word "ordinary". Non-scientific is not quite the right term here because we all do science in one form or other every day).

But there are many interesting things out there in the world that everyone comes into contact with. For example, every year we get hit by a new wave of flu and all the doctors carry a new vaccine to counter it. Where is all this novelty coming from? This sort of fact is something that hannajoy must connect with (unlike scientific papers talking about fossil stratification). I personally understand that the principle of evolution not only accounts for the diversity of biological life but is also the driving force that separates us from a bland cosmos full of cold gas. Such an all encompassing principle should and does show up all around. If someone wants to argue that God is the originator of this "force" then that's OK by me.

Out of all the instances of biological evolution "doing its thing" there will be many more everyday things that hannahjoy will inevitably know about. Paternity testing and forensic DNA evidence is an unquestioned application of our understanding of the way nature has gone about assembling all living things. Discoveries about the commonality of DNA among the diverse forms of life on this planet are then as much beyond doubt as the convictions for murder based on DNA fingerprinting. This allows us to see how things like a pigment found in plants (retinal) can also be found in the human eye. But there are even more familiar aspects to all this that provide a glimpse of evolution at work:

As most of us are a member of an extended family we have the opportunity to observe similarities predicted by our understanding of genetics. Nobody would dream of saying it was just coincidence that they resembled their Mother or Father in certain ways. Often the resemblances are just too overwhelming. So we can all see how something is being passed from generation to generation. This can be taken together with other observations, for example, staying with the family theme we have post natal depression in mothers. This pervasive condition is present, by degree, in all mothers following childbirth (only when exaggerated does it present a problem). It plays a vital role by suppressing the mothers normal behaviour which might otherwise lead to a loss of focus on the newborn. As a trait (another resemblance to a parent) if not passed on to the child, the next generation might not so readily make it to breeding age given a mother who's attentions were less focused after they were born.

But Evolution is much more than just biology, it has a signature that is written all over the place. This signature is change. We see change in all walks of human endeavour for example. History captures this change and allows us to see evolution at work in another setting. But this signature is also written in the deeper history of paleobiology. hannahjoy might not like thinking about fossils, but they are there for anyone to dig out of the ground or to be found in museums and, what is most striking, is that they show us enormous amounts of change in the different forms of life. Form that has been changing all throughout the history of the world. This all speaks of a restless process. If it looks restful, it is only because we have such a pitifully short lifespan to compare it with.

[Cathar1950]

I am reading the Creationist. It is interesting read. It seems in the late 1800's many who were arguing about evolution accepted it in some form along with creationist ideas. Today I wonder how much is really just people feeling anxiety and a sense of powerlessness hang on to beliefs for their comfort. Science seems to used often to exploit people at least as technology. So in part it is a reaction to this use.
Maybe there are not so much fools as troubled people.
Therapy maybe a better solution then debate for some folks.

[steen]

Scientific statements often have religious implications and vice versa.

Nope, Scientific statments deal with facts. If these facts have some contradiction in those who BELIEVE otherwise, that is not Science having religious implications, but rather religion being stuck ourtside of reality.

The Bible is so subject to interpretation that no one can figure out what it really means, but the fossil record is so objective that no one studying it can come to any other conclusion than evolution??

Yes. Those who actually study the science instead of misrepresenting it do not see other conclusions thatn Evolution, that is correct.

[a.elhusseini]

O.k, my first post...ill just be as brief as possible and bring in my part for discussion. There can only be one way we existed. Its not like part of the world evolved from nothing and the other were sent down by god !! Its either evolution took place which has been proven for animals or god created us as perfect beings. The muslim majority has stood with the christians debating against evolution. Since we humans have NOT yet been proved to evolve from "mindless chimps"[scientists are still searching for the missing link] then evolution is close to truth, just not yet... But, after careful analysis of god's word in the Holy Quran a scholar found that God created evolution, just not human evolution... that's interesting. The article continues to discuss how the Quran has been misinterpreted regarding this specific topic. God created evolution "soul-less" humans living in earth up till Adam and Eve:the perfect form we have forever atained.

Once again the miracles in the Quran stand out to explain all the fossils found by scientists and to prove again that it is the divine word of god...

Here's the article :http://islam.speed-light.info/islam_cre ... lution.htm
Peace out,

[micatala]

Welcome to the forum a. elhusseini. Hope this first post is not your last!

I have lost track of this thread for a bit. At this point, I will simply share my own view that it is possible for religion and evolution to coexist. However, it may be that believers 'of the book' (whichever book that is) will never unanimously accept evolution, and it is fair to say that to accept evolution does require a different interpretation of the book than a more literal creationist view.

However, this has happened in the past more than once, and I think will continue to happen.

I find the scenario that evolution presents incredibily awe-inspiring and truly manifesting God in his infinite wisdom and glory. I do not know if the Quran includes the Psalms of the Hebrew Bible, but the Psalmist says "The Heavens Declare the Glory of God" etc. To me, evolution is a part of this Glory. When presented with evidence from God's creation, especially when it is so irrefutable, I would suggest it is certainly allowable and even recommended that we alter our interpretation of Holy Scripture. After all, we have done so before, and we should admit that out interpretations are subject to error, even for those who hold that Scripture is not.

Also, while I disagree with Hannahjoy's viewpoint on creationism and evolution, I would agree that it is possible for scientific facts and theories to have religious implications, although the reverse is not true. At least with respect to traditional and existing religions, the evidence these religions provide is simply not admissable within modern science.

[steen]

O.k, my first post...ill just be as brief as possible and bring in my part for discussion. There can only be one way we existed. Its not like part of the world evolved from nothing and the other were sent down by god !!

What do you mean with "evolved from nothing" that certainly is not what the Scientific Theory of Evolution states, so could you clarify what it is you are talking about?

Its either evolution took place which has been proven for animals or god created us as perfect beings. The muslim majority has stood with the christians debating against evolution.

Please cease your MISREPRESENTATION about Christians being against Evolution. Only a minor number of uneducated, fundie Christians have spoken out against evolution. The rest of us Christians have no problem with Evolution at all.

So please be careful about your claims. You can rapidly be branded as dishonest if you are not sure that what you claim is actually true.

Since we humans have NOT yet been proved to evolve from "mindless chimps"

Science doesn't claim that we evolved from chimps. At least KNOW what it is you are talking about before making such claims. What you are saying now is pure nonsense and indicative of serious ignorance of the subject.

[scientists are still searching for the missing link]

What missing link? link between what?

then evolution is close to truth, just not yet...

That is a fascinating claim. Are you saying that evolution is ONLY about hominids?

But, after careful analysis of god's word in the Holy Quran a scholar found that God created evolution, just not human evolution... that's interesting.

Not really? What an unsubstantiated, non peer-reviewed text says has no bearing on science at all, only on faith.

The article continues to discuss how the Quran has been misinterpreted regarding this specific topic. God created evolution "soul-less" humans living in earth up till Adam and Eve:the perfect form we have forever atained.

really? And the evidence is...?

Once again the miracles in the Quran stand out to explain all the fossils found by scientists and to prove again that it is the divine word of god...

So the evidence for the Quran is the Quran itself? Nice example of circular logic there.

[a.elhusseini]

Steen said
What do you mean with "evolved from nothing" that certainly is not what the Scientific Theory of Evolution states, so could you clarify what it is you are talking about?

This was nothing more than a metaphore, two theories exist, one is that we evolved from bacteria. the other is we are relatives of dumn chimps and monkeys.

Steen said
Please cease your MISREPRESENTATION about Christians being against Evolution. Only a minor number of uneducated, fundie Christians have spoken out against evolution. The rest of us Christians have no problem with Evolution at all.

So please be careful about your claims. You can rapidly be branded as dishonest if you are not sure that what you claim is actually true.


No wait YOU dont generalize when you say that christians havent refuted the evolution theory. i know this from what i see, almost all christians argue that the evolution theory is in direct contradiction to what the bible preaches about how adam and eve were created in the perfect form and no human evolution took place up till today. again there can only be one way we came into existence.

Steen said
Science doesn't claim that we evolved from chimps. At least KNOW what it is you are talking about before making such claims. What you are saying now is pure nonsense and indicative of serious ignorance of the subject.

"We don't have that particular fossil that represents the population that was ancestral to chimps on the one hand and humans on the other." from http://www.newsandevents.utoronto.ca/bios/askus4.htm

wat i said is god created evolution but once again we present day humans have not evolved from any mammal/bacteria.

Steen said
really? And the evidence is...?

I gave a direct link to the article that discussed this, had u been any smarter u would have read that article before replying giberish.

Steen said
So the evidence for the Quran is the Quran itself? Nice example of circular logic there.

once again if u have read that article then u wouldn't have talked more giberish.

P.S the article's link is http://islam.speed-light.info/islam_cre ... lution.htm

[Grumpy]

a.elhusseini

This was nothing more than a metaphore, two theories exist, one is that we evolved from bacteria. the other is we are relatives of dumn chimps and monkeys.

Actually these are just two parts of the same theory. Both statements are true.

No wait YOU dont generalize when you say that christians havent refuted the evolution theory. i know this from what i see, almost all christians argue that the evolution theory is in direct contradiction to what the bible preaches about how adam and eve were created in the perfect form and no human evolution took place up till today. again there can only be one way we came into existence.

Steen was correct in his statement, the vast majority of the Christian sects DO accept evolution.

"We don't have that particular fossil that represents the population that was ancestral to chimps on the one hand and humans on the other." from

We may not have all of the fossil we expect in the hominid line but that in no way negates the knowledge of that line we have gained. As an analogy consider this:
An auto accident occurs and the only witness has a film camera with power wind giving a series of still photos spaced apart in time by periods when the film was advancing. We do not have pictures for those periods of time when the camera was winding the film but we do have a series of clear photos arrainged in chronological order. Can we get a very good idea of the sequince of events? Yes! Would it stand up to a courts standard of beyond reasonable doubt? Certainly! Well, such is the current state of evidence in the evolution of man, there are no large gaps left in that sequince, just smaller and smaller ones waiting to be filled, as the article you referenced shows. So, while not perfect the fossil evidence is beyond the point where reasonable doubt is warrented.

wat i said is god created evolution but once again we present day humans have not evolved from any mammal/bacteria.

Given the above truths, you are wrong in stating this.

once again if u have read that article then u wouldn't have talked more giberish.

P.S the article's link is http://islam.speed-light.info/islam_cre ... lution.htm

The above article is based on religious teachings and not the scientific facts, therefore not valid as scientific evidence.

Grumpy 8)