Being Born Again Spiritually.

[hiramabbi2]

Not everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your born again spiritually.

Surely, Cain who was a murderer from the beginning and a liar was not created in the image or likeness of God. He was just a natural living soul without the Spirit of God.

In the day Adam & Eve were created in their image and likeness, Cain had already killed Abel. Gen. 5:1-3 Cross Gen. 1:26-27

Do you agree?

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

Greetings all,

I'm new to this forum. Hope I can contribute to the debate and discussion here - starting now

Not everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your born again spiritually.

Surely, Cain who was a murderer from the beginning and a liar was not created in the image or likeness of God. He was just a natural living soul without the Spirit of God.

In the day Adam & Eve were created in their image and likeness, Cain had already killed Abel. Gen. 5:1-3 Cross Gen. 1:26-27

Do you agree?

I'll agree. We are all born with a sinful nature. No one since Adam and Eve has been created in the image of God (except Christ of course). Even the prophets and the saints were all unrighteous sinners who were born again - baptized by the Holy Spirit.

The image of God is one that is perfectly righteous and holy. Adam and Eve were created in this image and prior to the Fall, they were perfectly righteous and holy. However, upon the Fall they became morally independent from God.

Adam and Eve's direct relationship with God prior to their sin was a perfect relationship since God is the source of all that is Good. When they sinned, they severed that perfect relationship and they set themselves up to live independently from God. However, if God is the source of the "good life", living independent from God is inherently imperfect (thus sinful).

Genesis 5:3 tells us Seth was made in Adam's image and likeness - which would be the imperfect, unrighteous nature of man after becoming independent from God. Since it was passed on to Seth, there is no reason to believe it wasn't also passed on to Cain and Abel, as well as the rest of mankind. This has essentially become known as "sinful nature" or "original sin."

As a result of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we do have the ability to morally reason, even with our imperfect relationship with God. However, since our moral faculties are independent to God’s perfect knowledge of good and evil, they are imperfect, and must be developed and maintained through God’s Word, the Holy Spirit and our faith-based human reason. This is the only way to live the "good life" God created us to live. The point where one reestablishes his broken relationship with God and His Law is essentially when one becomes born again. And when we are born again, our old self (sinful nature) is buried and we are a new creation (adopted son of God) made righteous and holy through Christ - that is His image.

[hiramabbi2]

Greetings all,

I'm new to this forum. Hope I can contribute to the debate and discussion here - starting now

I'll agree. We are all born with a sinful nature. No one since Adam and Eve has been created in the image of God (except Christ of course). Even the prophets and the saints were all unrighteous sinners who were born again - baptized by the Holy Spirit.

The image of God is one that is perfectly righteous and holy. Adam and Eve were created in this image and prior to the Fall, they were perfectly righteous and holy. However, upon the Fall they became morally independent from God.

Adam and Eve's direct relationship with God prior to their sin was a perfect relationship since God is the source of all that is Good. When they sinned, they severed that perfect relationship and they set themselves up to live independently from God. However, if God is the source of the "good life", living independent from God is inherently imperfect (thus sinful).

Genesis 5:3 tells us Seth was made in Adam's image and likeness - which would be the imperfect, unrighteous nature of man after becoming independent from God. Since it was passed on to Seth, there is no reason to believe it wasn't also passed on to Cain and Abel, as well as the rest of mankind. This has essentially become known as "sinful nature" or "original sin."

As a result of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we do have the ability to morally reason, even with our imperfect relationship with God. However, since our moral faculties are independent to God’s perfect knowledge of good and evil, they are imperfect, and must be developed and maintained through God’s Word, the Holy Spirit and our faith-based human reason. This is the only way to live the "good life" God created us to live. The point where one reestablishes his broken relationship with God and His Law is essentially when one becomes born again. And when we are born again, our old self (sinful nature) is buried and we are a new creation (adopted son of God) made righteous and holy through Christ - that is His image.

Dear Esoteric_Illuminati,

First of all, welcome and I hope you'll have fun here.

The speculation and implication that Adam died Spiritually after the “original sin” would mean, the Invisible God Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, were in ERROR in creating Adam Spiritually to begin with but only to be pluck away from their hands by the old serpent. Such is not the case however.

Here's why:

There are THREE (numeric) that bear records in Heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one (unity). 1John 5:7

In order for one to die Spiritually, one must first be Born Spiritually.

"Let US create man in our image after our likeness" requires that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost operate in unity or agreement to make one a Spiritual Being.

This is confirmed by John 14:16-17 which shows that the agreement of "US" is necessary for a Spiritual Birth.

However, when Jesus formed of Adam from the dust of the ground becoming a natural living soul (flesh) Gen. 2:7 – that was not spiritual birth, since, Eve was not yet made from his ribs nor included the agreement of "US"on that particular time. Therefore, it would not harmonized or reconciled to Gen. 1:26 nor John 14:16-17.

This is confirmed in Paul’sa epistle, 1Corinthians 15:45-46

1 CORINTHIANS 15
v45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit
.
v46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Adam was FORMED/MADE on the 3rd Day and was Created spiritually in their image and likeness - together with Eve - on this present 6th Day.


God Bless

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

The speculation and implication that Adam died Spiritually after the “original sin” would mean, the Invisible God Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, were in ERROR in creating Adam Spiritually to begin with but only to be pluck away from their hands by the old serpent. Such is not the case however.

That's not the implication at all. God created Adam and Eve with free will. Free will didn't create their spiritual death, however it allowed for that option. If they didn't have a choice to sin or not, they would've been no more significant than robots.

Original sin essentially means we're all born morally independent from God. The ramification for our moral independence and broken relationship from God is what we often call sinful nature and/or "spiritual death." We have a natural inclination to sin because we have a broken relationship with God. We aren't born literally "spiritually dead"; it is more accurate to say we're born "spiritually insane" (religious philosophers could call this egoistical). That is what naturally follows from being morally independent from God. We're all born with a spirit, but this spirit is in Adam's fallen image - independent/separate from God - hence the idea of being "spiritually dead." We are as good as dead when we are separated from God.

Sinful nature in Scripture:
Genesis 8:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

(Along with Psalm 51:3-5; Psalm 58-3; Job 25:4; Ecclesiastes 9:3; John 3:6; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 8:1-17; Romans 5:12; Romans 3:9-12)

So I wouldn't argue we're not born spiritually, I would argue that our human spirit is naturally inclined towards evil from the time of conception. That has to do with our fallen image (nature) imparted to us as descendents of Adam. Only through repentence and baptism do we effectively "drown" this old self and experience a rebirth in Christ.

Furthermore, when I think of the topic of original sin and sinful nature, I remember a discussion C.S. Lewis had in Mere Christianity where he remarked that God only begets God, while man only begets man. Think about that for a second. We are all begotten of our fathers to the time of Adam. Adam possessed an imperfect, fallen image due to his sin. Now ask yourself, "How can an imperfect, unrighteous man beget a spiritually perfect and righteous child?" It doesn't seem possible to me. I'd even be inclined to point toward the principle of causality to support me on that.

Original sin does not damage the doctrine of the Trinity. In order for our old self, our fallen human spirit (begotten from Adam) to die, we must crucify it and be buried with Christ. This occurs at the baptism of the Holy Spirit, where we become born again. Water baptism serves as the outward sign of this spiritual death. In our spiritual death, we accept Christ and bond our conscience and our will to obey Him and this is accomplished not by our work, but by the Holy Spirit inside us who counsels and guides us, by God's Word, in our new spiritual life together with Christ.

I believe you quote 1 Corinthians 15:45-46 out of context. Paul is comparing our natural bodies here on earth with the likeness of Adam with our spiritual bodies at the resurrection with the likeness of Christ. These passages do not imply that we have no "spirit" prior to us being born again. They compare our bodies now, made of flesh and blood with our spiritual bodies at the resurrection.

Seeing as you quote from the KJV I can understand the easy confusion. The NIV, within its context, I believe clears up any discrepancy as to what Paul is talking about:

1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Context is everything.

This Website explains the "spiritual death" quite well I believe - at least worth a look. (Scroll down to "Spiritual Death")

Adam was FORMED/MADE on the 3rd Day and was Created spiritually in their image and likeness - together with Eve - on this present 6th Day.

I'm curious where do you get the idea that Adam was formed/made on the 3rd Day? I understand God created the "dry ground" on the third day, but I believe Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 2:7 clearly state that Adam was formed and given life on the same (sixth) day. Genesis 1:9-13 (the third day) say nothing of Adam's creation.

[bernee51]

Not everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your born again spiritually.

Surely, Cain who was a murderer from the beginning and a liar was not created in the image or likeness of God. He was just a natural living soul without the Spirit of God.

In the day Adam & Eve were created in their image and likeness, Cain had already killed Abel. Gen. 5:1-3 Cross Gen. 1:26-27

Do you agree?

no

[hiramabbi2]

Dear Esoteric_Illuminati:

I can certainly understand your position, but there are several Scriptural contradictions to your understanding. The first is that Gen. 2:18 shows that Adam was ALONE before the animals and birds, which were formed from the Ground, were made at the beginning of the 6th Day. The traditional view, that Adam was formed AFTER the creatures were formed from the ground, at the beginning of the 6th Day, contradicts Gen. 2:18-20.

Another contradiction is that you believe that Adam lost his Spiritual Life when he sinned. This is in contradiction to Scripture and seems to show that the Godhead made a mistake in Creating him Spiritually in the first place.

No one dies Spiritually for if they could, then God would have made a mistake. Those who are born of the Spirit are alive forevermore, Eternally.

Adam was formed physically, on the 3rd Day, After the 1st Earth and the other Heavens, but Before the plants and herbs of the 3rd Day. This would give Adam and mankind pre-eminence to every other created being. It explains why Adam was Alone, at the beginning of the 6th Day, and named the creatures formed from the Ground, by the hands of Jesus.

When Adam was told that he would DIE in the Day, that he disobeyed, it was BEFORE Eve was formed. Adam did not die physically, within 24 hours, and could not have died Spiritually, because he was not Created Spiritually until AFTER Eve was formed. Gen. 1:27 and Gen. 5:1-2 show that Adam was Created, at the SAME time when Eve was Created.

I also believe that Adam did die, PHYSICALLY, in the Day, that he sinned. Adam and all other mankind, will Die, physically, on this present 6th Creative Day of God. Those who are Born Spiritually will Never Die.


God Bless

[otseng]

no

Please add more than a simple reply as "no". We have added an additional rule to prevent one-liners.

9. No unconstructive one-liners posts are allowed in debates (Do not simply say "Ditto" or "I disagree" in a post. Such posts add little value to debates).

Adding additional reasoning behind your answer will add value to the debate and make this forum more meaningful. Thanks.

[bernee51]

no

Please add more than a simple reply as "no".

No sir

9. No unconstructive one-liners posts are allowed in debates (Do not simply say "Ditto" or "I disagree" in a post. Such posts add little value to debates).

Adding additional reasoning behind your answer will add value to the debate and make this forum more meaningful. Thanks.

Oh I see what you mean...

Not everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your born again spiritually.

not sure where it says that in the bible - I was under the impression that Gen 1:26 said "And God said, Let us make man in our image, ..."

note the OUR - god was not alone!!

Who was there with him? Mythiss god?

Seeing I think god is a myth (just like Thor, Zeus etc) and the bible a collection of tales from an age long ago when men knew no better - my opinion is of no concern.

OTOH - just as a point of interest...

In the day Adam & Eve were created in their image and likeness, Cain had already killed Abel. Gen. 5:1-3 Cross Gen. 1:26-27

are you saying here that Cain killed Abel before god had made their father and mother - neat trick!!

[Arch]

Not everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your born again spiritually.

Surely, Cain who was a murderer from the beginning and a liar was not created in the image or likeness of God. He was just a natural living soul without the Spirit of God.

In the day Adam & Eve were created in their image and likeness, Cain had already killed Abel. Gen. 5:1-3 Cross Gen. 1:26-27

Do you agree?

No I don't agree!

FIRST REASON

Can this statement be any more unbiblical?

There is no biblical verse real or imagined that backs anything said in this statement.

SECOND REASON

There is no biblical implications that anyone other than the god of the bible has the power to create the spirit or soul that would have been the existence and controller of the body we are calling CAIN

If the bible is correct then the god of the bible is the only creator of souls and spirits. If Cain’s spirit was not in the image of GOD, then GOD must have wanted it that way. If your statement is true then GOD for all intents and purposes gave Cain a evil spirit or created him in a image not like GOD's thus creating an evil being who would kill his own brother.

Even the prophets and the saints were all unrighteous sinners who were born again - baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Show me one quote in the Old Testament that shows a prophet being baptized or born again for that matter. In fact show me one quote that speaks on the concept of being born again at all in the Old Testament.

Genesis 5:3 tells us Seth was made in Adam's image and likeness - which would be the imperfect, unrighteous nature of man after becoming independent from God.

Genesis 5:3 says; And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: . Image means resemblance… this simply could mean he looked like him and had his same mannerism or teachings or beliefs.

Nothing here states anything about original sin and independent unrighteous natures.

Have you people read the penalty of adding to the bible? It is serious that is if you believe in the bible.

[hiramabbi2]

Not everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your born again spiritually.

Surely, Cain who was a murderer from the beginning and a liar was not created in the image or likeness of God. He was just a natural living soul without the Spirit of God.

In the day Adam & Eve were created in their image and likeness, Cain had already killed Abel. Gen. 5:1-3 Cross Gen. 1:26-27

Do you agree?

No I don't agree!

FIRST REASON

Can this statement be any more unbiblical?

There is no biblical verse real or imagined that backs anything said in this statement.

SECOND REASON

There is no biblical implications that anyone other than the god of the bible has the power to create the spirit or soul that would have been the existence and controller of the body we are calling CAIN

If the bible is correct then the god of the bible is the only creator of souls and spirits. If Cain’s spirit was not in the image of GOD, then GOD must have wanted it that way. If your statement is true then GOD for all intents and purposes gave Cain a evil spirit or created him in a image not like GOD's thus creating an evil being who would kill his own brother.

It's amazing how Atheist' could come up with distorted premises creating fallacious argument for themselves!!!

They don't even believe the Bible to begin with yet, they are looking for an answer that's written in the Scripture!??? How convenient, isn't it?

Here's the deal Arch, if I show you the proof in the Bible that directly alludes to Cain being the devil, from the beginning, are going repent and become a Christian? I don't think so - would that be a fair assumption, Arch?

So then, what kind of discussion or argument are you looking for that will bind you to a certain parameter? Please educate us.