Is Christianity/Religion to blame for attrocities?

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The Persnickety Platypus
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Is Christianity/Religion to blame for attrocities?

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Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

This topic was split from "is life meaningless for athiests".







Wow. Well I appreciate your honesty. I must say your revelation is quite disheartening. I hope there aren't hordes of people out there that are refraining from evil because of the god/heaven incentive. That's scary. I would rather think good people are just plain good.
Am I a rare breed of person? I think not.

Animal nature is the fufilling of self-interests. Every organism on the planet is subject to selfish tendancies. Maybe some more than others.

Are there hordes or people out there right now refraining from evil because of the heaven incentive? The simple truth- yes. Are there even more people that commit evil due to a lack of incentive? Of course.

Must religion be present for people to do good? No, but it sure helps. I would consider myself a pretty good person by nature, but religion makes me better. We all have our flaws, but I feel that religion helps to compensate for many of them.

Fortunately, humans possess a power most animals lack- empathy. With the right stimulation we may be good. Religion serves as a good stimulant, and can bring out the best in people.

You consider yourself to be a good person. That's great. But perhaps you could be even better as a Christian, hypothetically speaking. How many people do you see who manage to dredge themselves from a wild unethical life by instituting a Christian worldview? The changes that come about are remarkable.
Last edited by The Persnickety Platypus on Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #91

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

ShieldAxe wrote:
The Persnickety Platypus wrote:I didn't see anything about Christians in that article.
:lol:
"A Christian group attacked without warning."

This line in particular excludes the religion I submit to from any involvement. My Bible does not accomodate murder. Apparently these people must abide by a different doctrine.

Is a person a civil rights advocate if they oppress people of opposing races? If I vote Bush, am I still an environmentalist? Can the guy cleaning my chimney be a plumber?

Of course not. So how can these people be Christian (as in, a follower of Christ, a man who consistantly disinclined any act of violence) if they murder people of different faiths?



McColloch, I expect your observations would be quite different if you visited a country with a Muslim percentage considerably higher than .05%. I do not know the Quran inside out, how can I assume to speak for Islamic atrocities?




Another news bulletin for you: today millions of Christians (and Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhists, ect) donated countless time and billions of dollars to thousands of good causes around the world. But don't expect to read about that in tomarrow's paper. Death and destruction take automatic precedence.

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Post #92

Post by McCulloch »

The Persnickety Platypus wrote:McCulloch, I expect your observations would be quite different if you visited a country with a Muslim percentage considerably higher than .05%. I do not know the Quran inside out, how can I assume to speak for Islamic atrocities?
According to Statistics Canada Muslims make up 2.0% of my country's population. Jewish 1.1%, Buddhist 1.0%, Hindu 1.0% and Sikh 0.9%. And in my province, Ontario, Muslim 3.1%, Jewish 1.7%, Buddhist 1.1%, Hindu 1.9% and Sikh 0.9%. I believe that the proportion of Muslims in my city, Toronto, is higher than that, they certainly are at my place of work.
In what way do you expect that my observations should be different because I live in a place where the Muslim percentage is considerably higher than .05%?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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The truth will make you free.
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ENIGMA
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Post #93

Post by ENIGMA »

The Persnickety Platypus wrote:
ShieldAxe wrote:
The Persnickety Platypus wrote:I didn't see anything about Christians in that article.
:lol:
"A Christian group attacked without warning."

This line in particular excludes the religion I submit to from any involvement. My Bible does not accomodate murder.
Then I dare say that your Bible has been severely redacted from the one that is quite readily available by Christians, both online and off.

The Old Testament was quite clear that violence and violent acts are not only not forbidden by God, but often times encouraged for such offenses including but by no means limited to such things as not properly worshipping Him, having a relative that does not properly worship Him, occupying land that God's Chosen people wanted to occupy.

Even excluding all of the Old Testament, there are a number of examples in which violence was advocated or used when such violence was unnecessary. The main example that comes to mind is the one with the money-changers in the temple. Violence in driving them out was not needed. Even a mere mortal such as myself could see that one could remove the money changers from the temple by simply making a few arrangements. Namely, miraculously ensure that the money changers never happen to have the required currency to make a given transaction. A couple days of that at most and the problem would be quickly, readily, and fairly decisively resolved.
Apparently these people must abide by a different doctrine.
Yes, quite likely the one informed by the rest of the Bible.
Is a person a civil rights advocate if they oppress people of opposing races?
Probably not, but they could do both.
If I vote Bush, am I still an environmentalist?
Quite possibly. If you think that the other guy would be the same or worse on that topic, and you agree with Bush on more important issues then such a situation is possible.
Can the guy cleaning my chimney be a plumber?
People can and often do work two jobs.
Of course not.
Really, there is some divine intervention that prevents people from working two jobs? Do tell.
So how can these people be Christian (as in, a follower of Christ, a man who consistantly disinclined any act of violence) if they murder people of different faiths?
Did Peter cease to be a follower of Christ when he hacked off the ear of the Roman guard?
Another news bulletin for you: today millions of Christians (and Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhists, ect) donated countless time and billions of dollars to thousands of good causes around the world. But don't expect to read about that in tomarrow's paper. Death and destruction take automatic precedence.
As have atheists, except atheists have no big banner to donate under. Heck, one atheist has donated more money to good causes than any single congregation. You might have heard about him. He, his wife ,and some music star guy got in the press recently..
Gilt and Vetinari shared a look. It said: While I loathe you and all of your personal philosophy to a depth unplummable by any line, I will credit you at least with not being Crispin Horsefry [The big loud idiot in the room].

-Going Postal, Discworld

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Post #94

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

In what way do you expect that my observations should be different because I live in a place where the Muslim percentage is considerably higher than .05%?
Obviously, if there are no Muslims, there is no one to do the apologetics.

But I think a simple web search would prove your earlier statement wrong. Muslims all over the globe decried the 9/11 attacks. Of course, you or I wouldn't have noticed it as much, living in predominantly Christian nations.
The Old Testament was quite clear that violence and violent acts are not only not forbidden by God, but often times encouraged for such offenses including but by no means limited to such things as not properly worshipping Him, having a relative that does not properly worship Him, occupying land that God's Chosen people wanted to occupy.
Yes, quite likely the one informed by the rest of the Bible.
What relevance do Old Testament teachings have to a Christian?

Rom 7:1-4
Don't you realize, brothers and sisters, that laws have power over people only as long as they are alive? (I'm speaking to people who are familiar with Moses' Teachings.) For example, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he is alive. But if her husband dies, that marriage law is no longer in effect for her. So if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she will be called an adulterer. But if her husband dies, she is free from this law, so she is not committing adultery if she marries another man. In the same way, brothers and sisters, you have died to the laws in Moses' Teachings through Christ's body. You belong to someone else, the one who was brought back to life. As a result, we can do what God wants.



Rom 3:19-22
We know that whatever is in Moses' Teachings applies to everyone under their influence, and no one can say a thing. The whole world is brought under the judgment of God. Not one person can have God's approval by following Moses' Teachings. Moses' Teachings show what sin is. Now, the way to receive God's approval has been made plain in a way other than Moses' Teachings. Moses' Teachings and the Prophets tell us this. Everyone who believes has God's approval through faith in Jesus Christ. There is no difference between people.

Heb 3:3-6
Jesus deserves more praise than Moses in the same way that the builder of a house is praised more than the house. After all, every house has a builder, but the builder of everything is God. Moses was a faithful servant in God's household. He told the people what God would say in the future. But Christ is a faithful son in charge of God's household. We are his household if we continue to have courage and to be proud of the confidence we have.

Joh 8:5
In his teachings, Moses ordered us to stone women like this to death. What do you say?"
.........
Joh 8:11 The woman answered, "No one, sir." Jesus said, "I don't condemn you either. Go! From now on don't sin."
Really, there is some divine intervention that prevents people from working two jobs? Do tell.
Come on, they were just examples. Point is, you cannot profess to be something, but then go and do the opposite of what that something entails. Well, I suppose technically you could, but you would be a hypocrite.
Did Peter cease to be a follower of Christ when he hacked off the ear of the Roman guard?
No, but he ceased to follow Christ's commandments.

Anyone who consistantly does the opposite of what is taught cannot rightly be considered a follower.
Even excluding all of the Old Testament, there are a number of examples in which violence was advocated or used when such violence was unnecessary. The main example that comes to mind is the one with the money-changers in the temple. Violence in driving them out was not needed. Even a mere mortal such as myself could see that one could remove the money changers from the temple by simply making a few arrangements. Namely, miraculously ensure that the money changers never happen to have the required currency to make a given transaction. A couple days of that at most and the problem would be quickly, readily, and fairly decisively resolved.
Who was hurt during that rite? Jesus' actions in the Temple fall under a very forced definition of "violence". In fact, we don't even have enough scriptural evidence to conclude that what he did was even remotely aggressive. To say he "turned over the tables" could mean anything.

Which of Jesus' own commandments do you think he neglected to follow in this instance? You have other examples of NT violence? Please share.
As have atheists, except atheists have no big banner to donate under. Heck, one atheist has donated more money to good causes than any single congregation. You might have heard about him. He, his wife ,and some music star guy got in the press recently..
Since niether of us have an aggregation of evidence comparing both sides, I think we should just leave it at that.

I only profess what I see. There is not a single person in my church who I would consider remotely violent or meanspirited in any way. Take a random group of practicing Christians, and I may find just one or two who I might consider "bad people". However, take a similar survey of random athiests, and my observations might be considerably different.

It is impossible to present evidence for contrasting moral standards amoung specific groups of individuals, of course. All the same, from personal experience, I think Christs teachings have had an overwhelming overall good effect upon society.

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Post #95

Post by ShieldAxe »

I came across another fairly recent conflict arisen from religious differences.

http://www.showmenews.com/2001/Sep/20010909News027.asp

Story ran on Sunday, September 09 2001
Excerpt:
LAGOS, Nigeria (AP) - President Olusegun Obasanjo called out the army yesterday to combat Muslim-Christian violence raging in a northern Nigerian city, where terrified residents told of churches and homes burned and bodies piling up in the streets.

Authorities imposed a dawn-to-dusk curfew to quell the fighting, which erupted Friday night at the time of Muslim prayers.

Some said a Christian woman angered Muslims by trying to cross a street where Muslim men were praying.

One young man in Jos said he was part of a mob of Christians who killed 10 people and set their bodies on fire. He spoke by telephone on condition of anonymity.

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