Did Allah start Christianty?

[Burninglight]

Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.

The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!

[Peace]

@Burninglight: Hey again!

I know the accuracy of a religion doesn't depend on size, but this source proves I am right about the deception of Allah. http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ ... ceiver.htm

A very biased site, you should be critical when reading such sources. I showed you in front of your eyes using a non-biased translator (Google translate) every angle and possible way you could arrive at 'deception' and effectively shown otherwise. How could you argue with Google translate? These words are Arabic and people know their meanings so don't make it worse for yourself.

PS: where I live, such a biased site is blocked here lol, so if you want you could copy the interesting parts and paste them here and I could refute their points too, although I see no need, we are arguing about the well known translations of words.

Muslims reject the gospel story of Jesus being a substitute for our sins, the just for the unjust. They use the illustration of a man having to pay for a speeding ticket he did not commit. My question is: How do you explain that in the Muslim view of the cross, someone completely innocent died in Jesus place, after God made him appear to be Jesus? Was not this a Substitutionary sacrifice?

There are different views on who actually went and got crucified. Some are of the opinion that it was Judas Iscariot, Jesus's enemy. Others, myself included, believe one of the disciples volunteered to do it, and before he did, Jesus told them that whoever volunteered would go to Heaven. This was in order to save Jesus's (peace be upon him) life and was the will of God.

Muslims cannot accept the concept of 'original sin' because logically and in light of the scriptures it doesn't make sense. We cannot accept that the sin of Adam is passed down like genes, in fact, we believe God forgave Adam. We believe God is forgiving and he doesn't need some sort of 'prerequisite' (sacrifice) to forgive us.

Peace, you bring up the trinity a lot as if Christians have a problem with it, and they don’t. Please don’t bring it up anymore unless you can provide me with the following information:
1. Produce a Quranic reference attacking the exact formulation of the Trinity as hammered out by Christians in the official Creeds.
2. Show us where the Quran says that they are infidels/disbelievers who assert that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
3. Present a text stating that Christians are blasphemers for believing that God is one and three at the same time.
4. Quote a citation which blames Christians for believing that Jesus is God in those exact words.
5. Moreover, find a passage that accurately defines the Christian understanding of Jesus’ Sonship and which claims that this is what it rejects.
6. Finally, show us a single place in the Quran which says that it is not possible for Allah to appear as or become a man.

I will try my hardest, and for the record, I don't believe Christians have a problem with it since I don't believe all Christians read their scriptures with an open mind and question obvious contradictions, in fact, It is rare that we come across someone who has read the Bible in its entirety (of course the members of this site are not an accurate representation of everyday society).

Anyways,

1)

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." - Surah (4:171)

"Those who say, "God is the Messiah, son of Mary," have defied God. The Messiah himself said; "Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord." If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are." The Noble Qur'an - Surah (5:72-75)

2) When we read the rest of Surah 4, the verses right after 171 are 172 and 173 which say:

"Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer)." - Surah (4:172)

"But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them." - Surah (4:173)

We also know that associating partners to worship with God is called Shirk and we have many many instances on such verses.

In Islam, God is the one who decides who goes to heaven and who doesn't, not us. You may believe in God, but you do not believe in His messengers and you associate other entities to worship Him. I don't know what you would be classed as if your concepts of God are insulting too - resting, begetting and having a mother (some sects).

3) I partially did this in my second point but may I make it clear that God judges not us:

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve"(Qur'an 2:62)

This shows that even Christians who do good may go to heaven as God is merciful. Of course each case is separate and it God will judge you accordingly, of course it plays a big part if you knew about Islam and rejected everything from it out of arrogance.

4)

Romans (9:5) - "...Christ came, who is overall, the eternally blessed God."

5) A passage where? you mean in the Qur'an? If so, we simply reject association in worship. We pray to God, we submit to God and we ask from God - not Jesus.

6)

And there is none like unto Him. - Surah (112:4)

Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep.... - Surah (2:255)

He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; - Surah (112:3)

These are all characteristics of men, and God is not like His creation.

Now that I have answered your list, please answer mine:

Is the Father God?
Is Jesus God?
Is the Holy Spirit God?

Are they all the same? If they are, then why does Jesus pray to the Father?

Hope this has helped dude![/quote]

[A Troubled Man]

ANSWER: lol, Everyone in the world can understand it

That's obviously false, the Arab language was only known in one small part of the world.

the Arabic language is unique, it is the most eloquent, plain, deep and expressive of the meanings that might arise in one's mind. Therefore, the most honorable Book, was revealed in the most honorable language. The Quran is perfect in every respect, it is easy, plain and clear and beautiful of all languages. The Quran is so eloquent and perfect in its wording and meanings, those do not believe in it their disbelief is one of stubbornness. It is a cure for doubts and confusion that exists in peoples hearts and a guidance of the hearts for these who believe in it.

LOL! Islamic propaganda. Arabic is just another language, deal with it.

[A Troubled Man]

@ A Troubled Man

QUOTE: "Evolution explains my existence. 
I will be dead after I die. 
Evolution explains humans. 

Sorry to burst your fabricated bubble"

ANSWER: What is your existence?? What will happen to you after death?  and how can nothing turn into something through natural selection???

LOL! My existence is my existence. I will be dead after I die. Natural selection is fact and all life on earth is the result.

Again, sorry to burst your bubble, bub.

[HaLi8993]

@ A Troubled Man

QUOTE: "That's obviously false, the Arab language was only known in one small part of the world"

ANSWER: Every person provided he is sane and able can learn and understand the Quran, there is no excuse  why this isn't possible. 

QUOTE: "LOL! Islamic propaganda. Arabic is just another language, deal with it"

ANSWER: lol, that must be one of your favorite lines, its not like any other language it is very unique.

[HaLi8993]

@ A Troubled Man

QUOTE: "LOL! My existence is my existence. I will be dead after I die. Natural selection is fact and all life on earth is the result. 

Again, sorry to burst your bubble, bub."

ANSWER: He he,well that's a great explanation of the purpose of your existence, yes we know you will be dead after you die, why in your opinion do you believe it is the end, its over, nothing will happen after this???, there is absolutely no proof for natural selection nor is it a fact lol. 

[Goat]

@ A Troubled Man

QUOTE: "LOL! My existence is my existence. I will be dead after I die. Natural selection is fact and all life on earth is the result. 

Again, sorry to burst your bubble, bub."

ANSWER: He he,well that's a great explanation of the purpose of your existence, yes we know you will be dead after you die, why in your opinion do you believe it is the end, its over, nothing will happen after this???, there is absolutely no proof for natural selection nor is it a fact lol. 

Actually, natural selection has been observed, and can actually be repeated in laboratory experiments. SO, yes, it is a fact.

[Burninglight]

@ A Troubled Man

QUOTE: "LOL! My existence is my existence. I will be dead after I die. Natural selection is fact and all life on earth is the result. 

Again, sorry to burst your bubble, bub."

ANSWER: He he,well that's a great explanation of the purpose of your existence, yes we know you will be dead after you die, why in your opinion do you believe it is the end, its over, nothing will happen after this???, there is absolutely no proof for natural selection nor is it a fact lol. 

Actually, natural selection has been observed, and can actually be repeated in laboratory experiments. SO, yes, it is a fact.

Natural selection, if true, doesn't prove God doesn't exist

[Goat]

@ A Troubled Man

QUOTE: "LOL! My existence is my existence. I will be dead after I die. Natural selection is fact and all life on earth is the result. 

Again, sorry to burst your bubble, bub."

ANSWER: He he,well that's a great explanation of the purpose of your existence, yes we know you will be dead after you die, why in your opinion do you believe it is the end, its over, nothing will happen after this???, there is absolutely no proof for natural selection nor is it a fact lol. 

Actually, natural selection has been observed, and can actually be repeated in laboratory experiments. SO, yes, it is a fact.

Natural selection, if true, doesn't prove God doesn't exist

No, it doesn't. What it DOES do is show that there is principles that operate in nature that shows that a deity is not needed to understand and explain how life changes over time. Does it show that there is no god??? Of course not. Does it show that there is an explanation for the diversity of live on earth that does not depend on the existence of a God?? You betcha.

[Burninglight]

@ A Troubled Man

QUOTE: "LOL! My existence is my existence. I will be dead after I die. Natural selection is fact and all life on earth is the result. 

Again, sorry to burst your bubble, bub."

ANSWER: He he,well that's a great explanation of the purpose of your existence, yes we know you will be dead after you die, why in your opinion do you believe it is the end, its over, nothing will happen after this???, there is absolutely no proof for natural selection nor is it a fact lol. 

Actually, natural selection has been observed, and can actually be repeated in laboratory experiments. SO, yes, it is a fact.

Natural selection, if true, doesn't prove God doesn't exist

No, it doesn't. What it DOES do is show that there is principles that operate in nature that shows that a deity is not needed to understand and explain how life changes over time. Does it show that there is no god??? Of course not. Does it show that there is an explanation for the diversity of live on earth that does not depend on the existence of a God?? You betcha.

If that were true that would mean God didn't exist. God set things in motion to run by themselves, but All things are held together by the word of His power

[Goat]

@ A Troubled Man

QUOTE: "LOL! My existence is my existence. I will be dead after I die. Natural selection is fact and all life on earth is the result. 

Again, sorry to burst your bubble, bub."

ANSWER: He he,well that's a great explanation of the purpose of your existence, yes we know you will be dead after you die, why in your opinion do you believe it is the end, its over, nothing will happen after this???, there is absolutely no proof for natural selection nor is it a fact lol. 

Actually, natural selection has been observed, and can actually be repeated in laboratory experiments. SO, yes, it is a fact.

Natural selection, if true, doesn't prove God doesn't exist

No, it doesn't. What it DOES do is show that there is principles that operate in nature that shows that a deity is not needed to understand and explain how life changes over time. Does it show that there is no god??? Of course not. Does it show that there is an explanation for the diversity of live on earth that does not depend on the existence of a God?? You betcha.

If that were true that would mean God didn't exist. God set things in motion to run by themselves, but All things are held together by the word of His power

That is your statement of belief. However, do you have empirical evidence for that? You know.. something that can be physically examined , that doesn't beg the question?