The Urantia Book as a source of Truth

For the love of the pursuit of knowledge

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McCulloch
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The Urantia Book as a source of Truth

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

In another thread
Bro Dave wrote:for the 1 in a 100 seekers of Truth amoung them, they may read enough [of the Urantia Book, UB] to discover its wisdom. That is why I am here; to expose them to the UB's clearer vision of religion, science, and cosmology.

Implicit in that statement, is the admission from Bro Dave that the UB is a source of Truth. The questions for debate are, "In general, how is it that a source of truth in religion, science and cosmology is determined? In what way does the UB meet those criteria?"
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Re: Certainty and Uncertainty

Post #21

Post by Curious »

Bro Dave wrote:
Had this revelation been only for the intellectuals, it would probably have had a different tone. However, it was meant to offer all who were interested in getting a better overview the insight they sought, regardless of their IQ. There will be other revelations to come. And, in fact, they make it clear that the UB is hardly the only attempt to reach mankind at this time. We all come with our cultural and mental baggage. Wanting to overcome our limitations and biases will move us toward better answers. For many, the Urantia Book offers that clarification and unifying view.

Bro Dave
:-k
Why the hurry to overcome the baggage? If pressed to carry it a mile then carry it two.

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Re: Certainty and Uncertainty

Post #22

Post by Bro Dave »

Curious wrote:
Bro Dave wrote:
Had this revelation been only for the intellectuals, it would probably have had a different tone. However, it was meant to offer all who were interested in getting a better overview the insight they sought, regardless of their IQ. There will be other revelations to come. And, in fact, they make it clear that the UB is hardly the only attempt to reach mankind at this time. We all come with our cultural and mental baggage. Wanting to overcome our limitations and biases will move us toward better answers. For many, the Urantia Book offers that clarification and unifying view.

Bro Dave
:-k
Why the hurry to overcome the baggage? If pressed to carry it a mile then carry it two.
Some who have peeked inside that "baggage", have decided to "repack". For some, the baggage is perfectly comfortable, and serves them, at least for now. This is why free will is important... our baggage, our choice.

Bro Dave
:) :) :)

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Quibbling over "invariable" vs. "always"

Post #23

Post by Rob »

Curious wrote:
UB wrote:Time is an invariable element in the attainment of knowledge; religion makes its endowments immediately available, albeit there is the important factor of growth in grace, definite advancement in all phases of religious experience. Knowledge is an eternal quest; always are you learning, but never are you able to arrive at the full knowledge of absolute truth. In knowledge alone there can never be absolute certainty, only increasing probability of approximation; but the religious soul of spiritual illumination knows, and knows now. And yet this profound and positive certitude does not lead such a sound-minded religionist to take any less interest in the ups and downs of the progress of human wisdom, which is bound up on its material end with the developments of slow-moving science. (1120.1)
Time is an invariable element in the attainment of knowledge? I really think that if this was divinely inspired the word invariable would not have been chosen as time itself is known to be variable. While the intended interpretation is obviously that time is always a factor in learning, the use of language here actually gives an interpretation that is contrary to scientifically known fact. Perhaps I am being overly harsh here but surely a cosmic revelation that it takes time to learn stuff seems a little lightweight.

The truth never suffers honest examination. So let us examine what you are actually saying. You are basically saying the use of the word "invariable" in the phrase "an invariable element" is an inappropriate choice, for which you claim "the intended interpretation is obviously that time is always a factor in learning."

So, you are basically claiming that the statement, "time is always a factor in learning," with "always a factor" being the phrase in question and "always" being offered as a more appropriate word to use, compared to the statement "time is an invariable element in the attainment of knowledge," with "an invariable element" being the phrase you question and "invariable" being the word you would replace by "always."

As you yourself admit, the clear meaning of the usage of "invariable" in the sentence you question is that time is "always," meaning "occurring alike in every case," a "factor" or "element" in learning "without exception" and " every time" and "on all occasions."

First, if one looks up "always" in the Oxford Thesaurus, we find:
Concise Oxford Thesaurus wrote:always --> each time, at all times, all the time, without fail, consistently, unfailingly, invariably ...
We also find the following in the Oxford Dictionary:
Oxford Dictionary wrote:
invariable: Not subject to variation or alteration; unchangeable, unalterable; remaining ever the same, unchanging, constant; occurring alike in every case, unvarying.

invariably: 1. In an invariable manner; without variation, unchangingly, constantly; without exception, in every case alike.

always: 1. at every time, on every occasion, at all times. 2. every time, at all times, on all occasions.
It is obvious that the usage of always above means the same as the usage of invariable (at least according to the Oxford Thesaurus!) and either word conveys the same meaning that any common sense usage would imply.

I don't know if I would characterize your quibbling over whether "always" has a better semantic meaning than "invariable" as "being overly harsh," but I do find it a bit like quibbling over whether "reasonable" is "lightweight" compared to "sensible."
Oxford Dictionary wrote:quibble: 1. To argue in a purely verbal way; to evade the real point by a quibble. 2. to trifle or deal unfairly with, by quibbling.
You claim the use of "invariable," for which you substitute "always," which as we see from above mean the same thing, is a usage "of language [that] ... actually gives an interpretation that is contrary to scientifically known fact," because "as time itself is known to be variable." You logic is flawed; the fact that time is invariably/always an element/factor in learning doesn't contradict or say anthing about the relativity of time itself. So what if time is variable; the relativity of time refers to different reference frames, and unless you are reading this (learning) while you are traveling at the spead of light the fact that we may be living in different time zones doesn't make a bit of difference that it took you "time" to read it and "learn" what I just said. You have confused the two realities and created a non sequiter and straw man argument.

I will be entering into the path of achieving an advanced degree in biology (evolutionary developmental biology) and history of science in the philosophy department, and I can with confidence assume that "Time is an invariable element in the attainment" of the knowledge required to complete the degree ;-)

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Re: Quibbling over "invariable" vs. "always&a

Post #24

Post by Curious »

Rob wrote:
Curious wrote:
UB wrote:Time is an invariable element in the attainment of knowledge; religion makes its endowments immediately available, albeit there is the important factor of growth in grace, definite advancement in all phases of religious experience. Knowledge is an eternal quest; always are you learning, but never are you able to arrive at the full knowledge of absolute truth. In knowledge alone there can never be absolute certainty, only increasing probability of approximation; but the religious soul of spiritual illumination knows, and knows now. And yet this profound and positive certitude does not lead such a sound-minded religionist to take any less interest in the ups and downs of the progress of human wisdom, which is bound up on its material end with the developments of slow-moving science. (1120.1)
Time is an invariable element in the attainment of knowledge? I really think that if this was divinely inspired the word invariable would not have been chosen as time itself is known to be variable. While the intended interpretation is obviously that time is always a factor in learning, the use of language here actually gives an interpretation that is contrary to scientifically known fact. Perhaps I am being overly harsh here but surely a cosmic revelation that it takes time to learn stuff seems a little lightweight.

The truth never suffers honest examination. So let us examine what you are actually saying. You are basically saying the use of the word "invariable" in the phrase "an invariable element" is an inappropriate choice, for which you claim "the intended interpretation is obviously that time is always a factor in learning."

So, you are basically claiming that the statement, "time is always a factor in learning," with "always a factor" being the phrase in question and "always" being offered as a more appropriate word to use, compared to the statement "time is an invariable element in the attainment of knowledge," with "an invariable element" being the phrase you question and "invariable" being the word you would replace by "always."

As you yourself admit, the clear meaning of the usage of "invariable" in the sentence you question is that time is "always," meaning "occurring alike in every case," a "factor" or "element" in learning "without exception" and " every time" and "on all occasions."

First, if one looks up "always" in the Oxford Thesaurus, we find:
Concise Oxford Thesaurus wrote:always --> each time, at all times, all the time, without fail, consistently, unfailingly, invariably ...
We also find the following in the Oxford Dictionary:
Oxford Dictionary wrote:
invariable: Not subject to variation or alteration; unchangeable, unalterable; remaining ever the same, unchanging, constant; occurring alike in every case, unvarying.

invariably: 1. In an invariable manner; without variation, unchangingly, constantly; without exception, in every case alike.

always: 1. at every time, on every occasion, at all times. 2. every time, at all times, on all occasions.
It is obvious that the usage of always above means the same as the usage of invariable (at least according to the Oxford Thesaurus!) and either word conveys the same meaning that any common sense usage would imply.

I don't know if I would characterize your quibbling over whether "always" has a better semantic meaning than "invariable" as "being overly harsh," but I do find it a bit like quibbling over whether "reasonable" is "lightweight" compared to "sensible."
Oxford Dictionary wrote:quibble: 1. To argue in a purely verbal way; to evade the real point by a quibble. 2. to trifle or deal unfairly with, by quibbling.
You claim the use of "invariable," for which you substitute "always," which as we see from above mean the same thing, is a usage "of language [that] ... actually gives an interpretation that is contrary to scientifically known fact," because "as time itself is known to be variable." You logic is flawed; the fact that time is invariably/always an element/factor in learning doesn't contradict or say anthing about the relativity of time itself. So what if time is variable; the relativity of time refers to different reference frames, and unless you are reading this (learning) while you are traveling at the spead of light the fact that we may be living in different time zones doesn't make a bit of difference that it took you "time" to read it and "learn" what I just said. You have confused the two realities and created a non sequiter and straw man argument.

I will be entering into the path of achieving an advanced degree in biology (evolutionary developmental biology) and history of science in the philosophy department, and I can with confidence assume that "Time is an invariable element in the attainment" of the knowledge required to complete the degree ;-)
Thank you for this classic demonstration of missing the woods for the trees. You spend an inordinate amount of time examining the most trifling part of the statement while completely failing to understand what is meant in it's entirety. The quotation I was originally referring to, while no doubt intending to impress with it's verbosity, in my opinion, makes it overly susceptible to misinterpretation given the language used.
My main point, which I referred to as perhaps being overly harsh was the actual content of this supposed cosmic revelation. I may have been correct in my assumption that I was being harsh, if indeed ( before you were introduced to this little pearl of wisdom) you had believed that you would simultaneously wish for and acquire your degree. I really don't see that as being reasonable or sensible to believe any more than I believe it is reasonable or sensible to believe a cosmic author would expect a reader to waste time reading what is blatantly obvious. Surely such time would be better spent learning something you don't already know. As revelations go I reckon this one is about as lightweight as they come and is on a par with the revelation that pain hurts.

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Re: Certainty and Uncertainty

Post #25

Post by Curious »

Bro Dave wrote: ...Wanting to overcome our limitations and biases will move us toward better answers...



...Some who have peeked inside that "baggage", have decided to "repack". For some, the baggage is perfectly comfortable, and serves them, at least for now. This is why free will is important... our baggage, our choice.

Bro Dave
:) :) :)
You don't overcome your limitations, you can only move them. Fine, if the baggage becomes too uncomfortable you should learn to find a better balance or become stronger so it becomes bearable. I can't see the point in going out jogging only to get on the first bus that comes along when the going gets tough. That way only leads to you growing fat and lazy ( and permanently unfit to run a marathon ).

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Re: Certainty and Uncertainty

Post #26

Post by Bro Dave »

Curious wrote:
Bro Dave wrote: ...Wanting to overcome our limitations and biases will move us toward better answers...



...Some who have peeked inside that "baggage", have decided to "repack". For some, the baggage is perfectly comfortable, and serves them, at least for now. This is why free will is important... our baggage, our choice.

Bro Dave
:) :) :)
You don't overcome your limitations, you can only move them. Fine, if the baggage becomes too uncomfortable you should learn to find a better balance or become stronger so it becomes bearable. I can't see the point in going out jogging only to get on the first bus that comes along when the going gets tough. That way only leads to you growing fat and lazy ( and permanently unfit to run a marathon ).
I'm not sure I'm following here, but if you are suggesting the UB is a piece of fluff, I can assure you, it will challenge everything you can bring to bear. If your feeling particularly mentally frisky, you might want to try a read of the Forward. Normally, I steer folks away from it, because it is really a summation of the entire book, and not the introduction that eases one into what is to follow. Then again, you may be quite happy with the marathon you are currently running, and do not need any further challenges. Either way, I can guarantee you will not become either fat or lazy in an attempt digest what the UB has to offer!

:-k

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Post #27

Post by CJK »

I'm not sure I'm following here, but if you are suggesting the UB is a piece of fluff, I can assure you, it will challenge everything you can bring to bear.
OK, can you explain to me the 'celestial beings' whom have alledgedly authored the book? I am having some serious trouble coming to grips with such an allegation.

If you cannot, or if for some reason you are not allowed to reveal the secrets regarding this mystery, it remains fiction.

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Post #28

Post by Bro Dave »

CJK wrote:
I'm not sure I'm following here, but if you are suggesting the UB is a piece of fluff, I can assure you, it will challenge everything you can bring to bear.
OK, can you explain to me the 'celestial beings' whom have alledgedly authored the book? I am having some serious trouble coming to grips with such an allegation.

If you cannot, or if for some reason you are not allowed to reveal the secrets regarding this mystery, it remains fiction.
The celestial beings are just some of those involved with administration of the Universe... not so mysterious as it seems at first. They are already responsible to see that the "big picture" functions, and so they are called upon to help us to understand how it all comes together. You can see a job description of each of these celestial, if you are interested in knowing.

Revelations each have particular difficulties. With persons doing the revealing,(as with Melchezidek in the Bible and of cours Jesus), you always run the risk of focusing on the messanger, and missing the message. With this revelation, we have sufficient literacy to have it in written form. Still, it is natural to want to know about the authors. All I can say is, if the content is not there, the authors do not matter. And likewise, if the content does not stand up, authors do not matter. In real estate, its location, location, location. With revelation, it content, content, content... :-k

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Post #29

Post by CJK »

The celestial beings are just some of those involved with administration of the Universe...
Let me back this up a bit... I was born out of the cult Scientology, so I am well aware of the illogicality of this foolishness when I see it.

Until you can prove these absurdities ('celestial beings') exist, and can clearly state their objective meaning, the Urantia book remains a piece of fiction.

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Post #30

Post by Bro Dave »

CJK wrote:
The celestial beings are just some of those involved with administration of the Universe...
Let me back this up a bit... I was born out of the cult Scientology, so I am well aware of the illogicality of this foolishness when I see it.

Until you can prove these absurdities ('celestial beings') exist, and can clearly state their objective meaning, the Urantia book remains a piece of fiction.
My friend, unlike the "created-in-a-bar-on-a-bet" psuedo religion Scientology, the Urantia Books only purpose, is to recompile what mankind has previously been given, and to share a bit more as we are able to assimilate it. My purpose is to make it visible. If you have the curiosity and the grit in you gut to investigate it, great. If you do not, it really does not matter at all. Your choice.

Bro Dave

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